# Obama and Divisiveness **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 8, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286 "2016-03-08T15:38:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/341 "2016-05-22T21:23:35Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > …More like what made Trayvon put pics of himself with fake guns on his Instagram. Who had the gun, and who had the can of Snapple? And internet/instagram pictures of people with guns? You want some internet pictures of white people with guns? Get your bit bucket…no, wait, you’ll need more capacity than a bucket for that bittorrent. Grand Canyon, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/342 "2016-05-22T23:15:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Can you give some examples of self-flagellation practices that are being exhibited by whites? safe spaces, microaggressions, trigger warnings, trying to remove names of people from universities, etc. to name a few ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/343 "2016-05-22T23:25:20Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You can’t, obviously, redo the past. You can, however, base the policies on the present on the damage wrought by the policies of the past. > > Every black person I know does work hard. On the topic of economic opportunity, though, how would you say black Americans rate on that scale relative to others, given issues like school quality, and mass incarceration for drug crimes (while using drugs at the same or lower rates than white people)? > > Other minorities endured very different circumstances. > > How would we “undo past racist policies”? By studying their effects, and applying new policies designed to mitigate those effects. > > I’ll give you two examples: > > [Physical infrastructure like railroads and highways](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/07/16/how-railroads-highways-and-other-man-made-lines-racially-divide-americas-cities/) was used to segregate black communities, along with discriminatory lending and housing policies. In essence, black residents were cordoned off into poor neighborhoods with underfunded schools and little economic opportunity. This situation persists today. To reverse this problem requires understanding the cause, and working to undo the methods that were used to create the problem in the first place: changing how cities are planned, changing how school districts are formed and funded, and so forth. > > Secondly, are you familiar with the concepts of [url=[Culture of honor (Southern United States) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_United_States))]cultures of honor vs cultures of law? The Southern US, due to being settled by Scots-Irish, was and is a culture of honor, and this was transmitted to black slaves. Transitioning from a culture of honor into a culture of law requires a legal system that people believe in enough to set aside traditional methods of settling disputes. Our legal system, on the other hand, is wildly antagonistic to black Americans, and has been for centuries. If you want poor black people, or poor Southern white people, to use the law instead of violence to settle disputes, you’ll first have to reform our legal system. Therefore, there are no poor, failing whites and no wealthy, successful blacks. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/344 "2016-05-22T23:32:14Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Therefore, there are no poor, failing whites and no wealthy, successful blacks. Did you attend the same school of reading only one’s own inferences, ignoring the actual text, from which **DerekMichaels00** seems to have graduated with honors? Your response has no connection to the actual statements you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/345 "2016-05-22T23:37:40Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Did you attend the same school of reading only one’s own inferences, ignoring the actual text, from which **DerekMichaels00** seems to have graduated with honors? > > Your response has no connection to the actual statements you quoted. …so black poverty is not due to racism? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/346 "2016-05-23T00:00:09Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > …so black poverty is not due to racism? Complex issues can’t be reduced to simplistic statements like that. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/347 "2016-05-23T00:05:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Complex issues can’t be reduced to simplistic statements like that. LOL ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/348 "2016-05-23T00:16:09Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > LOL Complicated issues can indeed be good for a great big belly laugh! ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/349 "2016-05-23T00:58:32Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You can’t, obviously, redo the past. You can, however, base the policies on the present on the damage wrought by the policies of the past. > > Every black person I know does work hard. On the topic of economic opportunity, though, how would you say black Americans rate on that scale relative to others, given issues like school quality, and mass incarceration for drug crimes (while using drugs at the same or lower rates than white people)? > > Other minorities endured very different circumstances. > > How would we “undo past racist policies”? By studying their effects, and applying new policies designed to mitigate those effects. > > I’ll give you two examples: > > [Physical infrastructure like railroads and highways](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/07/16/how-railroads-highways-and-other-man-made-lines-racially-divide-americas-cities/) was used to segregate black communities, along with discriminatory lending and housing policies. In essence, black residents were cordoned off into poor neighborhoods with underfunded schools and little economic opportunity. This situation persists today. To reverse this problem requires understanding the cause, and working to undo the methods that were used to create the problem in the first place: changing how cities are planned, changing how school districts are formed and funded, and so forth. > > Secondly, are you familiar with the concepts of [url=[Culture of honor (Southern United States) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_United_States))]cultures of honor vs cultures of law? The Southern US, due to being settled by Scots-Irish, was and is a culture of honor, and this was transmitted to black slaves. Transitioning from a culture of honor into a culture of law requires a legal system that people believe in enough to set aside traditional methods of settling disputes. Our legal system, on the other hand, is wildly antagonistic to black Americans, and has been for centuries. If you want poor black people, or poor Southern white people, to use the law instead of violence to settle disputes, you’ll first have to reform our legal system. I do give you credit for examples and doing more than just “you’re a conservative racist.” I don’t dispute that past history has made it hard for them, and why I’m not against affirmative action, provided it is indeed used as a means for controlling for race history rather than simply pumping diversity numbers. I’m for economic assistance to black communities below certain income levels, empowerment zones, etc. I simply am against the recriminations against whites that involve safe spaces, microaggressions, trigger warnings, renaming buildings, rewriting national narratives about things, calling America a “nation of cowards” on race, trying to tie the amount of non-whites in NSA to somehow making us less safe, etc. Maybe in society, its more helpful to admit that one has been wronged without going out of one’s way to have someone to blame. On your drug rate numbers, there’s a big difference between (x% of one type of people do this) vs (x% of the people who do this are of one type). While one might be right that a greater percentage of overall drug users are white, fact is greater percentage of blacks use drugs, and of course the first statement will be true simply because the sample size for whites is 5 times bigger. I really can’t stand the spin some try with that fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/350 "2016-05-23T01:48:29Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I simply am against the recriminations against whites that involve safe spaces, microaggressions, trigger warnings, renaming buildings, rewriting national narratives about things, calling America a “nation of cowards” on race, trying to tie the amount of non-whites in NSA to somehow making us less safe, etc. This is a conflation of so many disparate and unrelated issues that it sounds more like an angry, fear laden, rant than a focused and reasoned set of objections. _Safe spaces, micro-aggression, trigger warnings:_ are a symptom of failure to parent and coddling of spoiled young adults. I’m not sure what it has to do with white people specifically. But more often than not, when I hear these things mentioned, it’s typically as a punchline rather than a new normal. _Renaming buildings, rewriting national narratives about things:_ you’ll have to provide examples and state your specific objections to same. _Nation of cowards on race:_ If you’re willing to discuss it, you’re not a coward. What’s the issue? _NSA:_ I confess, I have no idea what you’re on about. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/351 "2016-05-23T16:10:16Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I do give you credit for examples and doing more than just “you’re a conservative racist.” I don’t dispute that past history has made it hard for them, and why I’m not against affirmative action, provided it is indeed used as a means for controlling for race history rather than simply pumping diversity numbers. I’m for economic assistance to black communities below certain income levels, empowerment zones, etc. Well then, now we’re getting somewhere. > [@](#): > > I simply am against the recriminations against whites that involve safe spaces, microaggressions, trigger warnings, renaming buildings, rewriting national narratives about things, calling America a “nation of cowards” on race, trying to tie the amount of non-whites in NSA to somehow making us less safe, etc. You’re going to elaborate on how those things are “recriminations against whites”. > [@](#): > > Maybe in society, its more helpful to admit that one has been wronged without going out of one’s way to have someone to blame. Speaking for myself, I don’t care about blame for its own sake, I merely want things to get better. > [@](#): > > On your drug rate numbers, there’s a big difference between (x% of one type of people do this) vs (x% of the people who do this are of one type). While one might be right that a greater percentage of overall drug users are white, fact is greater percentage of blacks use drugs, and of course the first statement will be true simply because the sample size for whites is 5 times bigger. I really can’t stand the spin some try with that fallacy. I know the difference between rates and counting stats. Numbers on use vary with different surveys and studies, of course, but [here’s an overview of a 2011 study that found higher use rates amongst white](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-drug-use_n_3941346.html) for multiple drugs. And yet: Still, blacks are arrested for drug possession more than three times as often as whites, according to a 2009 report from the advocacy group Human Rights Watch. Of the 225,242 people who were serving time in state prisons for drug offenses in 2011, blacks made up 45 percent and whites comprised just 30 percent, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Jamie Fellner, author of the Human Rights Watch report, offered an explanation for this discrepancy. “The race issue isn’t just that the judge is going, ‘Oh, black man, I’m gonna sentence you higher,’” she said. “The police go into low-income minority neighborhoods and that’s where they make most of their drug arrests. If they arrest you, now you have a ‘prior,’ so if you plead or get arrested again, you’re gonna have a higher sentence. There’s a kind of cumulative effect.” This is a serious problem that’s going to require a great deal of reform to solve (I personally would just legalize drugs). ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/352 "2016-05-23T17:17:19Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well then, now we’re getting somewhere. > > You’re going to elaborate on how those things are “recriminations against whites”. > > Speaking for myself, I don’t care about blame for its own sake, I merely want things to get better. > > I know the difference between rates and counting stats. > > Numbers on use vary with different surveys and studies, of course, but [here’s an overview of a 2011 study that found higher use rates amongst white](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-drug-use_n_3941346.html) for multiple drugs. And yet: > > Still, blacks are arrested for drug possession more than three times as often as whites, according to a 2009 report from the advocacy group Human Rights Watch. > > Of the 225,242 people who were serving time in state prisons for drug offenses in 2011, blacks made up 45 percent and whites comprised just 30 percent, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics. > > Jamie Fellner, author of the Human Rights Watch report, offered an explanation for this discrepancy. > > “The race issue isn’t just that the judge is going, ‘Oh, black man, I’m gonna sentence you higher,’” she said. “The police go into low-income minority neighborhoods and that’s where they make most of their drug arrests. If they arrest you, now you have a ‘prior,’ so if you plead or get arrested again, you’re gonna have a higher sentence. There’s a kind of cumulative effect.” > > This is a serious problem that’s going to require a great deal of reform to solve (I personally would just legalize drugs). I agree with you on criminal justice reform and eliminating criminal penalties for marijuana/crack _use_ but not selling (even tho selling a single crack rock is very different than manufacturing them). What I mean by “recriminations against whites” include: getting rid of names of University buildings because members of the majority of our country from decades and centuries ago had different views, changing titles of “dorm master” to “whatever” simply because the word “master” has a synonym, telling people to “check their privilege,” safe spaces, microaggressions, trigger warnings, screeds about “marginalized vs unmarginalized” peoples, etc. I think the idiocy of those things is pretty obvious. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/353 "2016-05-23T17:29:03Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I agree with you on criminal justice reform and eliminating criminal penalties for marijuana/crack _use_ but not selling (even tho selling a single crack rock is very different than manufacturing them). > > What I mean by “recriminations against whites” include: getting rid of names of University buildings because members of the majority of our country from decades and centuries ago had different views, changing titles of “dorm master” to “whatever” simply because the word “master” has a synonym, telling people to “check their privilege,” safe spaces, microaggressions, trigger warnings, screeds about “marginalized vs unmarginalized” peoples, etc. I think the idiocy of those things is pretty obvious. Many of these things are indeed silly, but how are they “recriminations against whites”? When we talk about historical recriminations against black people, they include lynchings, mass killings, burning black towns/communities, mass assaults, etc.; how can you compare any of the things you mention to that? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/354 "2016-05-23T17:30:06Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > …What I mean by “recriminations against whites” include: getting rid of names of University buildings because members of the majority of our country from decades and centuries ago had different views, changing titles of “dorm master” to “whatever” simply because the word “master” has a synonym, telling people to “check their privilege,” safe spaces, microaggressions, trigger warnings, screeds about “marginalized vs unmarginalized” peoples, etc. I think the idiocy of those things is pretty obvious. Which year’s Democratic Platform included these items? As such a Loyal Longtime Democrat, I’m sure you can tell us! ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/355 "2016-05-23T17:37:24Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > And there is indeed still debate whether transgender ideology is truth, but that’s another debate. But its still a dividing line of non-consensus that President of all Americans, not just progressive Americans, ought to see. “Transgender ideology?” I guess there’s always “debate”, just as right now the KKK still “debates” how inferior African-Americans are to Latinos. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/356 "2016-05-23T17:45:27Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Which year’s Democratic Platform included these items? > > As such a Loyal Longtime Democrat, I’m sure you can tell us! well too many Dem senators and a Prez wanna change the name of a private non-governmental football team, and its hard to imagine the campus nutcases voting for anyone other than Bernie Sanders. > [@](#): > > Many of these things are indeed silly, but how are they “recriminations against whites”? Its trying manipulate whites into being guilty about their every single aspect of their heritage, even tho Jim Crow and Slavery are decades and centuries gone, respectively. Racial justice activism should focus on the present/future, not the past. Not adding more “diversity officers” or changing common curricula or “culturally biased tests.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/357 "2016-05-23T17:56:23Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Its trying manipulate whites into being guilty about their every single aspect of their heritage, even tho Jim Crow and Slavery are decades and centuries gone, respectively. Racial justice activism should focus on the present/future, not the past. Not adding more “diversity officers” or changing common curricula or “culturally biased tests.” It’s obvious that you have very strong views about these issues. Can you illustrate for us the kind of personal negative impact they have had on your life? In what way have you suffered from these white recrimination & racial justice activism agendas? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/358 "2016-05-23T18:26:40Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Its trying manipulate whites into being guilty about their every single aspect of their heritage, even tho Jim Crow and Slavery are decades and centuries gone, respectively. No it’s not. Why would it make anyone feel guilty unless they’ve actually done something racist? > [@](#): > > Racial justice activism should focus on the present/future, not the past. Not adding more “diversity officers” or changing common curricula or “culturally biased tests.” They do focus on the present and future – specifically on biases in housing law and practice, the justice system and law enforcement, educational resources, and much, much more. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/359 "2016-05-23T19:19:29Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I agree with you on criminal justice reform and eliminating criminal penalties for marijuana/crack _use_ but not selling (even tho selling a single crack rock is very different than manufacturing them). Good to hear…do you see now why I took exception to your remarks above white privilege not being worth the bother to work on? Being able to do drugs and be far less likely to go to prison than a black person doing the same drugs is a white privilege. > [@](#): > > What I mean by “recriminations against whites” include: getting rid of names of University buildings because members of the majority of our country from decades and centuries ago had different views, changing titles of “dorm master” to “whatever” simply because the word “master” has a synonym, telling people to “check their privilege,” safe spaces, microaggressions, trigger warnings, screeds about “marginalized vs unmarginalized” peoples, etc. I think the idiocy of those things is pretty obvious. That’s just repeating the list. I was hoping you could a) explain what each thing is, and b) why it’s objectionable and/or anti-white. Dig deep, the more detail the better. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286/360 "2016-05-23T19:48:30Z")
As rare as hen’s teeth, a class or subgroup of humans who willingly give up an unjust advantage. When white people complete that mission, they will indeed have something to be proud of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-divisiveness/748286.md?page=19)