# Obama and Georgia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2008, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921 "2008-08-14T00:59:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![blinkthrice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@blinkthrice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkthrice)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/1 "2008-08-14T00:59:34Z")
With all the madness within which Europe has recently found itself entrenched, and with Obama fresh off of a foreign tour designed to boost his credentials as a leader on the world stage, how should he handle the current quagmire in the caucasus? In my view, this whole situation has the potential to either damage his candidacy irreperably, or, on the flipside, solidify him once and for all as a principled leader able to make crucial calculations regarding both our enemies and allies. Obama being on vacation in Hawaii while the shit was getting ready to hit the fan wasn’t a good look at all, but what makes things even worse is that Mcain, as much as I dislike him, has managed to make himself look like more of a leader with his “tough stance” on Russia, and his close ties to Georgia, and the Georgian President. Now, to the more informed voter, Mcain’s hawkish approach will of course be looked upon with a greater scrutiny, but to an electorate that already views him as having the edge on issues relating to foreign policy, this doesn’t bode very well for Obama - unless he approaches it the right way. Instead of parroting the usual talking points in condemning Russian aggression, I feel that Obama should make it as clear as possible that while Russian aggression and goals of territorial expansion will not be tolerated, our allies have responsibilities to bear as well, and that not everything they decide to get themselves into will illicit the response they might have been hoping for for from the United States - especially allies who have aspirations of joining NATO and reaping the benefits that go along with that privledge. He needs to make this point forcefully, extolling the principle of the matter, without coming across as pinning all the blame on Georgia, of course. He’s already hinted that this was his position, and I think shying away from it out of a perceived politcal cost would be a big mistake. Then again, I’m no political consultant, tis’ just how I see things. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/2 "2008-08-14T17:24:47Z")
I think he needs to get back from Hawaii. The visuals of him strolling on the white sandy beach while the tanks are rolling and there is a potential war brewwing… well it just don’t look good. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/3 "2008-08-14T17:32:40Z")
[QUOTE=autz] I think he needs to get back from Hawaii. The visuals of him strolling on the white sandy beach while the tanks are rolling and there is a potential war brewwing… well it just don’t look good. [/QUOTE] But what can Senator Obama actually do if he cuts short his vacation? He’s not President of the US yet. ---
**Author:** ![3waygeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/e95f7d/32.png) [@3waygeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3waygeek)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/4 "2008-08-14T17:35:10Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] But what can Senator Obama actually do if he cuts short his vacation? He’s not President of the US yet. [/QUOTE] And if he did, the Republicans would call him arrogant, presumptious, et cetera. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/5 "2008-08-14T17:43:53Z")
[QUOTE=autz] The visuals of him strolling on the white sandy beach while the tanks are rolling and there is a potential war brewwing… well it just don’t look good. [/QUOTE] What, you think the U.S. is going to go to war with Russia over Georgia? Absolutely not happening. I agree that this is an opportunity to show some knowledge that Obama should not pass up, but he’ll be back on the trail in a couple of days and it’s not like McCain can do anything except talking, either. So far it sounds like Obama is doing the nuance thing and saying that Georgia bears some of the responsibility for what’s going on. I don’t know what McCain has said about it to this point, but I think both of them are going to end up saying that Russia needs to get out, but this is a problem Europe has to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/6 "2008-08-14T18:01:51Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] What, you think the U.S. is going to go to war with Russia over Georgia? Absolutely not happening. I agree that this is an opportunity to show some knowledge that Obama should not pass up, but he’ll be back on the trail in a couple of days and it’s not like McCain can do anything except talking, either. [/QUOTE] McCain has certainly been sounding very militant (“We are all Georgians”), and President Saakashvili of Georgia has been calling upon McCain to put his money, arms and troops where his mouth is, apparently not realizing that McCain is not actually the president and can’t do anything. Whether or not McCain would actually go in militarily is open to question, and also subject very much to change. A lot depends on what Russia will be doing over the next few days, as it now appears that Russia may in fact be going all the way and swallowing Georgia whole. Now Poland, Ukraine, and other former Soviet satellites are getting very upset. All of this per the cites provided by **Magiver** in post #278 (page 7) of this thread ([Is Russia determined to be an empire again?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=478773&page=1&pp=40)). I will say that it seems to me that McCain has never met a war he didn’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/7 "2008-08-14T19:24:51Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Whether or not McCain would actually go in militarily is open to question, and also subject very much to change. [/QUOTE] Now would be a good time for Obama to point out Bush policies these last 8 years makes the US far less capable of meeting this threat militarily if it actually wanted to. Whatever McCain might want sending in the Marines just is not an option. The US is reduced to strongly worded speeches. That said even if our military was ready to go I seriously doubt the US would go to fight Russia over Georgia. And even if we wanted to I doubt Turkey would be cool with it (and we’d pretty much have to stage out of there). Last I heard Obama and McCain were saying kind of the same thing about this although that was a few days ago…maybe their rhetoric has changed some. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/8 "2008-08-14T19:29:29Z")
It’s not just about Georgia. Have a look at the thread I linked to above. There’s quite a bit more to this, and it’s some very scary stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/9 "2008-08-14T20:24:21Z")
I don’t think Obama should have made statements spreading blame in the direction of the Georgians - this is an instance where his eloquence has screwed him. Whatever beef the Russians had should have been resolved without their having to storm over an internationally recognized international boundary - and Obama shouldn’t minimize this. Diplomacy behind the scenes can address the Ossetian issue, but public statements ought to be pro-Georgian and ought to support sanctions against Russia should they continue the conflict. McCain is on the right track here, though his rhetoric may go slightly too far ("…we are all Georgians") his level of support is right where it needs to be. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/10 "2008-08-14T20:46:03Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I don’t think Obama should have made statements spreading blame in the direction of the Georgians. [/QUOTE] It strikes me that holding someone blameless who is not blameless is dishonest. We’ve seen where such dishonesty leads in Iraq. Unless he supports the continuation of a dishonest foreign policy, McCain needs to publicly acknowledge that this is not entirely a black and white, us or them issue. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/11 "2008-08-14T20:53:24Z")
**Mr. Moto** , I understand entirely your horror at what the Russians are doing, but the Georgians actually attacked Russian troops resident in S. Ossetia and S. Ossetia civilians, about a third of whom were officially Russian citizens (see, it says so right there on the passports Russia foisted on them!). Whether or not Russia should have been in S. Ossetia is a different story; the fact is, they had been there under agreement since 1992, and Georgia coming militarily into Georgia was not the wise way to go about it, because it gave justification to Russia to do exactly what it has done. Under the same circumstances (US. "peacekeepers (soldiers) and citizens being killed), we would have also crossed borders. We probably would not have moved beyond S. Ossetia borders )a;, but we would have gone into S. Ossetia. I am not saying that what Russia is doing is not monstrous or that it is not a power grab. It is. I’m also not saying that Russia didn’t provoke Georgia; it probably did. That doesn’t change the fact that Georgia screwed up, probably with our encouragement. That doesn’t mean Georgia deserves what’s happening to it. But it does mean they’re not totally without blame in this. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/12 "2008-08-14T22:20:21Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I don’t think Obama should have made statements spreading blame in the direction of the Georgians - this is an instance where his eloquence has screwed him. Whatever beef the Russians had should have been resolved without their having to storm over an internationally recognized international boundary - and Obama shouldn’t minimize this. [/quote] Did you feel this way when the Israelis invaded Lebanon two years ago? If not, how is this case different? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/13 "2008-08-14T22:35:48Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] McCain is on the right track here, though his rhetoric may go slightly too far (“…we are all Georgians”) his level of support is right where it needs to be. [/QUOTE] This strikes me as way too far: > [@](#): > > The Arizona senator said he has talked to Saakashvili every day during the current crisis. [here](http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/08/14/mccain-warns-of-a-dramatically-different-relationship-with-russia-in-the-wake-of-its-invasion-of-georgia.html) and here: [McCain Sends Campaign Surrogates To Georgia](http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7011941638) > [@](#): > > Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) said Wednesday that two of his top campaign surrogates, Sens. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) and Joe Lieberman (I-CT), will visit Georgia to assess the ceasefire situation in the former Soviet Republic. McCain is a candidate for president, _not_ the actual president. Traditionally, candidates for president hold back on implementing their foreign policy until they actually _become_ president. Besides the effect of needlessly politicizing the Georgian crisis here at home, McCain’s actions, and the Bush administration’s failure to offer him any rebuke, make it clear to _everyone_ just how lame a duck we have in the white house. Emphasizing that is not in America’s best interest, and the experienced McCain _should_ know that. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/14 "2008-08-14T22:46:37Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] McCain is on the right track here, though his rhetoric may go slightly too far (“…we are all Georgians”) his level of support is right where it needs to be. [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, McCain (and largely America) has absolutely no bite in this issue and embarasses the nation by his continual barking because it only calls attention to it. ---
**Author:** ![blinkthrice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@blinkthrice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkthrice)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/15 "2008-08-14T23:28:57Z")
[QUOTE=Eyer8] Did you feel this way when the Israelis invaded Lebanon two years ago? If not, how is this case different? [/QUOTE] Israel can do no wrong, get with the program. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/16 "2008-08-14T23:42:24Z")
[QUOTE=Eyer8] Did you feel this way when the Israelis invaded Lebanon two years ago? If not, how is this case different? [/QUOTE] Most excellent question, Sir/Madam. Remind me again, how many Israeli soldiers died initially? And how many Lebanese were wasted in response? I’m almost waiting on pins and needles to hear **Mr Moto’s** response. Well, not quite. I’ve heard it all before – a gazillion times at that. Rule number ONE, the US is always right. Rule number TWO, if ever in the wrong apply rule number ONE Fact: [**2006 Lebanon War**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War) Say, apropos of nothing did you know **Mr Moto** was in the US Navy? No? Ask him, he’s always willing to relay all sorts of information about his stint – interesting stuff if you’re still into Ancient Trivial Pursuit 😉 PS-Dang you **Oy!** for getting moi involved in this silliness! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/17 "2008-08-15T00:00:24Z")
[**Georgia war is a neocon election ploy**](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/12/EDCD129NI4.DTL) > [@](#): > > Is it possible that this time the October surprise was tried in August, and that the garbage issue of brave little Georgia struggling for its survival from the grasp of the Russian bear was stoked to influence the U.S. presidential election? > > Before you dismiss that possibility, consider the role of one Randy Scheunemann, for four years a paid lobbyist for the Georgian government, ending his official lobbying connection only in March, months after he became Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain’s senior foreign policy adviser. > > Previously, Scheunemann was best known as one of the neoconservatives who engineered the war in Iraq when he was a director of the Project for a New American Century. It was Scheunemann who, after working on the McCain 2000 presidential campaign, headed the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which championed the U.S. Iraq invasion. > > There are telltale signs that he played a similar role in the recent Georgia flare-up. How else to explain the folly of his close friend and former employer, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, in ordering an invasion of the breakaway region of South Ossetia, which clearly was expected to produce a Russian counter-reaction. It is inconceivable that Saakashvili would have triggered this dangerous escalation without some assurance from influential Americans he trusted, like Scheunemann, that the United States would have his back. Scheunemann long guided McCain in these matters, even before he was officially running foreign policy for McCain’s presidential campaign. > > In 2005, while registered as a paid lobbyist for Georgia, Scheunemann worked with McCain to draft a congressional resolution pushing for Georgia’s membership in NATO. A year later, while still on the Georgian payroll, Scheunemann accompanied McCain on a trip to that country, where they met with Saakashvili and supported his bellicose views toward Russia’s Vladimir Putin. > > Scheunemann is at the center of the neoconservative cabal that has come to dominate the Republican candidate’s foreign policy stance in a replay of the run-up to the war against Iraq. These folks are always looking for a foreign enemy on which to base a new Cold War, and with the collapse of Saddam Hussein’s regime, it was Putin’s Russia that came increasingly to fit the bill… — much more at source. Must admit it beats a Soap. Plus you get to wear the always alluring Tin Foil Hat. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/18 "2008-08-15T00:11:21Z")
Out of curiosity Red, you don’t see this situation (wrt Georgia and Russia) as dire? Important? All you see is that it is a neo-con election ploy? I basically agree btw (though I think both sides are getting mileage out of this), but then I’m safely in America…not in Europe where this may all blow up in MY face. Personally I think it’s Europe’s problem, not ours. Let THEM deal with it. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2008, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/19 "2008-08-15T01:42:44Z")
[QUOTE=Eyer8] Did you feel this way when the Israelis invaded Lebanon two years ago? If not, how is this case different? [/QUOTE] That one disturbed me quite a lot - not least because Israel got little for its efforts. But just to be clear - an area of a neutral country that has been taken over by hostile forces that are shooting at you no longer possesses a neutrality that needs to be scrupulously respected should you decide to defend yourself. In the case of Georgia and South Ossetia - there was no such excuse when it came to Russia. As for Graham and Lieberman - while I would consider it unseemly for campaign staff to go to Georgia, these men are Senators - both sit on the Armed Services Committee and Graham also sits on the Intelligence Committee. It isn’t unseemly for a senator to go, no matter their relationship to a campaign - they are elected officials. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2008, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921/20 "2008-08-15T02:33:00Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] [**Georgia war is a neocon election ploy**](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/12/EDCD129NI4.DTL) — much more at source. Must admit it beats a Soap. Plus you get to wear the always alluring Tin Foil Hat. [/QUOTE] Funny, that’s the same thing the Russian government is saying. :rolleyes: > **[Latest news & breaking headlines](https://www.thetimes.com/)** > > The latest breaking UK, US, world, business and sport news from The Times and The Sunday Times. Go beyond today's headlines with in-depth analysis and comment. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-georgia/459921.md?page=2)