# Obama and Reverend Wright? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641 "2011-11-21T14:03:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/121 "2011-11-25T15:45:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Most of the “racist” and “anti-semitic” statements, (prior to Obama actually being elected, when Wright went after the “Jews” in the White House staff), were overblown. No one has ever provided any evidence that they were routine utterances from the pulpit. ABC picked up the follow-on story after Wright had reacted to a year’s worth of attacks by Fox and blew his cool. Oh, that’s a great point. Since he is only a “mild” racist and only said a few racist things to his congregation makes it okay in your eyes. You also seem to forget that Obama named his book after one of these racist sermons and even includes Wright’s racist quote in his book. I guess he was in church that Sunday. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Piffle. The version of Liberation Theology that made it into Protestant churches in the U.S. was pretty far removed from the Catholic Liberation Theology of South America and the overt links to Marxist thought had been severely diluted as it aged in South America, (under the disapproving gaze of Cardinal Ratzinger), and then transferred from the cultures in which it originated to the extremely different cultures of a different continent over twenty years. Finding “Liberation Theology” in Wright’s thoughts is irrelevant if you cannot find them in Obama’s–and they are not there. The Marxism of liberation theology may have been diluted in South America but not so in Black liberation theology. James Cone and Cornel West (a member of the Democratic Socialists of America) have done a good job of folding Marxism into the movement. If Obama does not agree with black liberation theology then why sit in that church for 20 years? Either he does agree with the principles of the church or he is a liar who pretended to agree with them for political expediency…going as far as to be married by one of the biggest proponents of black liberation theology. Take your pick. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/122 "2011-11-25T15:52:43Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Either he does agree with the principles of the church or he is a liar who pretended to agree with them for political expediency Wow. Exclude middle much? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/123 "2011-11-25T15:59:43Z")
I voted for Barack Obama in 2008. I will vote for him in 2012. Nevertheless, I think Democratic politicians who are dependent on white voters to win elections need to avoid carrying this kind of baggage around with them. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zheng](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@Mr.Zheng](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zheng)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/124 "2011-11-26T09:08:39Z")
The biggest head scratcher is that Wright is part white. Just looking at him physically, he probably had a white grandparent or great grandparent, but a white ancestor since the end of slavery in the 19th Century. I can understand him and his positions, but it was White America who gave him the position he has in society today. He might hate it, but he knows it’s true. Obama is a bigger white boy than a lot of white boys. Obama had a white mother who apparently loved him, white grandparents who loved him and supported him through his childhood into college and adulthood. Obama has literally no connection to African Americans. His father was not African American, he was from Kenya, and had very little to do with Obama’s life. Most of the ancestors of African Americans were caught in other parts of Africa (like modern Senegal) and nowhere near Kenya. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/125 "2011-11-26T10:35:28Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I’m thinking of the second statement. You know, the one where he threw Wright under that bus. Okay, here’s something I’ve always wondered: there are those who say that agreeing with Wright is a bad thing. But apparently, Obama disclaiming those particular statements is _also_ a bad thing, because it’s “throwing Wright under the bus.” What the heck was Obama _supposed_ to do, in these people’s minds? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/126 "2011-11-26T13:11:13Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Okay, here’s something I’ve always wondered: there are those who say that agreeing with Wright is a bad thing. But apparently, Obama disclaiming those particular statements is _also_ a bad thing, because it’s “throwing Wright under the bus.” What the heck was Obama _supposed_ to do, in these people’s minds? Be a white Republican, or resign. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/127 "2011-11-26T14:31:27Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Okay, here’s something I’ve always wondered: there are those who say that agreeing with Wright is a bad thing. But apparently, Obama disclaiming those particular statements is _also_ a bad thing, because it’s “throwing Wright under the bus.” What the heck was Obama _supposed_ to do, in these people’s minds? No. Obama disclaimed those statements in his first speech while not disowning Wright. Of course Wright then gave a speech and said other inflammatory things. Obama then disowned him. I think any reasonable person would conclude that Obama should have distanced himself from the man and the church as soon as he heard anything racist or anti-semetic coming out of the man’s mouth instead of sitting in that church for 20 years and having the guy perform his wedding. Obama admitted that he heard Wright saying controversial things in church before but he didn’t leave the church. So, knowing that Wright made “controversial” statements, disowning the statements but not the man when the statements become known, then disowning the man when that man continued saying more of the same was “boneheaded”. Initially defending the man and then disowning him was seen as “throwing Wright under the bus” due to political expediency. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/128 "2011-11-26T14:34:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Be a white Republican, or resign. That’s very intelligent. These people MUST be racists! Do you have anything of substance to say or do you routinely dismiss anyone who disagrees with Obama as racist? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/129 "2011-11-26T16:13:47Z")
> [@Mr.Zheng](#): > > The biggest head scratcher is that Wright is part white. Just looking at him physically, he probably had a white grandparent or great grandparent, but a white ancestor since the end of slavery in the 19th Century. I can understand him and his positions, but it was White America who gave him the position he has in society today. He might hate it, but he knows it’s true. > > Obama is a bigger white boy than a lot of white boys. Obama had a white mother who apparently loved him, white grandparents who loved him and supported him through his childhood into college and adulthood. Obama has literally no connection to African Americans. His father was not African American, he was from Kenya, and had very little to do with Obama’s life. Most of the ancestors of African Americans were caught in other parts of Africa (like modern Senegal) and nowhere near Kenya. You’re entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Black Americans are, on average, 18 % Euro ancestry. This the equivalent of every black American having either a white grandparent or white great-grandparent. So the great majority of black Americans are “part white”. The great majority of the time in US history, the white side of their families turned its back on them, denying any relation, abandoning infants when they came out the wrong color, etc. Part of the reason that Obama embraced a black American identity is that black Americans embraced him in a way that white Americans rarely would. Until the mid 1960’s black Americans were denied basic citizenship rights and equal treatment before the law. It was a huge struggle for black Americans to gain the basic rights and freedoms that any European immigrant was granted right after they stepped off the boat. Wright was well into adulthood before the US government took the necessary steps to secure basic citizenship rights for black Americans. Wright doesn’t owe white America anything. He’s bitter, justifiably so, that the US failed so massively and for so long in its ethical responsibilities to one of its founding populations. Wright served honorably and with distinction in the US Navy. One question he asked of his critics is, When did they serve? Damn straight. He’s earned his anger. Only a fool or a liar, when confronted with the actual facts of the historical record, would not recognize America’s massive moral failings. I don’t think Wright’s racist in any meaningful way. His congregation has always included substantial numbers of whites, and his church had always had white assistant pastors. The fact that he’s willing to condemn America’s failings in the realm of social justice just puts him squarely in the Christian tradition. No more, no less. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/130 "2011-11-26T16:22:41Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Oh, that’s a great point. Since he is only a “mild” racist and only said a few racist things to his congregation makes it okay in your eyes. You also seem to forget that Obama named his book after one of these racist sermons and even includes Wright’s racist quote in his book. I guess he was in church that Sunday. He did not make “mild racist” comments. Actually, I don’t find any racist comments in his statements, except as misquoted or quoted out of context. That is what overblown means. > [@yorick73](#): > > The Marxism of liberation theology may have been diluted in South America but not so in Black liberation theology. James Cone and Cornel West (a member of the Democratic Socialists of America) have done a good job of folding Marxism into the movement. > > If Obama does not agree with black liberation theology then why sit in that church for 20 years? Either he does agree with the principles of the church or he is a liar who pretended to agree with them for political expediency…going as far as to be married by one of the biggest proponents of black liberation theology. Take your pick. I did not say that Obama did not agree with (some parts of) Black Liberation Theology. I noted that the political aspects of the movement do not appear in Obama’s statments or his legislative or executive history. Like many such movements, the general trend is to apply various principles to various specific situations. Cone and West might be truly Marxist, (although I suspect they look more Marxist from the political Right than they do from the political center), but the general movement and its applications have not slavishly followed their leads. Since the Marxist stuff has not made it into Obama’s political philosophy, getting all excited that someone he admired for other reasons might have had Marxist influences remains silly. It would be rather like condemning a politician on the Right for admiring Billy Graham, since Graham has been caught making statements offensive to and defamatory of Jews. That is not the core of Graham’s message and one does not have to embrace Graham’s prejudices to look to him as a spiritual leader. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/131 "2011-11-26T16:34:15Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > That’s very intelligent. These people MUST be racists! Do you have anything of substance to say or do you routinely dismiss anyone who disagrees with Obama as racist? A certain percentage hold this position because they are racist, a larger percentage hold this position because he is not a Republican, and there is overlap between the two groups. To dismiss this fact would be silly. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/132 "2011-11-26T18:11:14Z")
the controversy is that Wright is a principled human being and Obama is an elite serving douchebag. Aslo Wright is an angry black man and that scurs the whiteys. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/133 "2011-11-27T21:54:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A certain percentage hold this position because they are racist, a larger percentage hold this position because he is not a Republican, and there is overlap between the two groups. To dismiss this fact would be silly. What is silly is your original ridiculous comment. Nice attempt at backpedaling. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/134 "2011-11-27T22:25:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > He did not make “mild racist” comments. Actually, I don’t find any racist comments in his statements, except as misquoted or quoted out of context. That is what overblown means. You really don’t find his comments racist? I wonder what your opinion would be if Wright was white making similar comments about blacks. What would you call a white preacher who claimed that black people invented AIDS in order to exterminate whites? I mean other than nuts. What would you call a white person who said “black folks’ greed runs a world in need”? Are either of those comments racist? Are either of the original comments taken out of context? If so, please put them in context for me. > [@tomndebb](#): > > I did not say that Obama did not agree with (some parts of) Black Liberation Theology. I noted that the political aspects of the movement do not appear in Obama’s statments or his legislative or executive history. Like many such movements, the general trend is to apply various principles to various specific situations. Cone and West might be truly Marxist, (although I suspect they look more Marxist from the political Right than they do from the political center), but the general movement and its applications have not slavishly followed their leads. Since the Marxist stuff has not made it into Obama’s political philosophy, getting all excited that someone he admired for other reasons might have had Marxist influences remains silly. It would be rather like condemning a politician on the Right for admiring Billy Graham, since Graham has been caught making statements offensive to and defamatory of Jews. That is not the core of Graham’s message and one does not have to embrace Graham’s prejudices to look to him as a spiritual leader. Let’s see…his mentor, Frank Marshall Davis, was a card carrying member of CPUSA. His pastor practices a strain of christianity steeped in Marxism. Obama appoints a self-described Communist as his green czar. Remember Carol Browner and her ties to Socialist International? Obama certainly doesn’t seem to have an issue surrounding himself with socialists. Do you really want to draw a parallel between Wright and Graham? If you wish to condemn those who admire Graham because of that comment from 30 years earlier, discovered in 2002, then go ahead. Of course you would have to dismiss Graham’s support for Israel and his refusal to be involved in calling for jews to be converted to christianity. Jeremiah Wright was making those comments up to, and after, Obama’s race speech. He is still making similar comments. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/135 "2011-11-27T22:42:01Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > You really don’t find his comments racist? I wonder what your opinion would be if Wright was white making similar comments about blacks. Silly. When Wright made his comments, he was not making claims for traits inherent in white people as a race, but as actually executed by white people as the majority power in government. I think Wright was silly in that regard, but nothing in his words indicates a belief that one perceived “race” is better or worse than another. > [@yorick73](#): > > Let’s see…his mentor, Frank Marshall Davis, was a card carrying member of CPUSA. His pastor practices a strain of christianity steeped in Marxism. Obama appoints a self-described Communist as his green czar. Remember Carol Browner and her ties to Socialist International? Obama certainly doesn’t seem to have an issue surrounding himself with socialists. And why should he? You want to believe that he is, in some way, contaminated by simply being near socialists, yet you have failed to present a single instance in which his actual actions or words have demonstrated that he has embraced their separate beliefs. This is very much analogous to the “commie” remarks to which I originally alluded. Let’s not look at a person’s actual behavior, we can just condemn him or her because some of his associates are on the “wrong side” of our beliefs, even when he has demonstated opposing beliefs. (Note that in his Audacity of Hope, he explicitly praises the free market system.) If one tends to work among the poor, one is going to encounter a lot of folks who tend socialist and even the occasional communist. Big time capitalists do not tend to hang out in those situations. Having friends and co-workers with specific beliefs does not, however, mean that one accpts all those beliefs at face value. If he has been so tainted by socialist associates, why did none of them make it into his cabinet or White House staff? This claim is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/136 "2011-11-28T00:57:54Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > So, you think the whole thing is nonsense? You also seem to believe that Fox made the poor Reverend make all those racist and anti-semetic statements? Did they force ABC to pick up the story? Then how was it “created” by Fox? I think you have it backwards. No he doesn’t. Fox took select clips out of context and played them over and over and over while having their panels of opinions for hire discuss how awful and hateful they were and how Obama had listened to sermons like this for 20 years. It was a dishonest. An emotional appeal rather than anything based on honesty and a complete picture. > [@yorick73](#): > > Liberation theology has been steeped in Marxism since its creation. So, yes, I think that needs to be taken into consideration when selecting a President. That is newsworthy on its own. Add to that the comments that Wright has made and you have to ask yourself what kind of a man would be associated with a church like that. What kind of a man would have Jeremiah Wright as a spiritual mentor? The right had courted Christian fundamentalist for decades without giving a dam about the hateful things they said or did. It wasn’t until they saw a potential political advantage that Fox created this false controversy. BTW; Black liberation theology has it’s roots in MLK Jr. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/137 "2011-11-28T14:14:09Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > **yorick73** , you have truly led an exception life if you have never been in a situation where a person you respect has expressed views to you strongly disagree with. No preacher, professor, coach, mentor, political leader, parent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, brother, sister, has ever said anything that you strongly object to (unless of course, you terminated the relationship immediatly). I mean, you ‘associate’ with people on the dope every day who hold opinions you find deplorable. What does that say about you, exactly? I mean, you have probably had friendly conversations with other dopers in CS about movies or whatever, and these could be the same people you have fought tooth and nail against in GD. I mean, what does that say about you? > > For all we know, part of the frelationship between Obama and Wright was they worked together to help the community, AND they had friendly debates behind the scenes about [insert boogy-man here]. You say you’ve NEVER had a relationship like that? > > The reason the story had no legs is that most americans can relate to having a mentor for specific subject matters while not swallowing whole their views in other areas. That’s why no one who wasn’t anti-Obama in the first place gave a shit. The often repeated technique of selective editing , repetition, and fanning the fires of a negative emotional response with opinion for hire commentators is pretty obvious by now isn’t it? Reasonable people understand that a few seconds cut out of a sermon is not representative of a full person or a life. When I looked at the details of Wright’s life and listened to a full sermon from which the offending words were pulled, the shallow dishonesty and distortion from Fox became obvious. It’s disappointing that they do that so often, it’s so obvious, and some people still seem eager to swallow it. I guess the old adage is true. Some of the people , all of the time. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/138 "2011-11-28T16:05:51Z")
Another quote from Lincoln that is relevent is to the effect that you can’t really trust Fox News to quote accurately. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/139 "2011-11-28T18:47:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Silly. > > When Wright made his comments, he was not making claims for traits inherent in white people as a race, but as actually executed by white people as the majority power in government. I think Wright was silly in that regard, but nothing in his words indicates a belief that one perceived “race” is better or worse than another. Your definition of racist is narrow indeed. Would you consider me racist if I blamed the problems in African nations on “those blacks that run the governments”, or just merely “silly”? I’m guessing you would find the comment racist or, at the very least, indicative of a racist mindset. > [@tomndebb](#): > > And why should he? You want to believe that he is, in some way, contaminated by simply being near socialists, yet you have failed to present a single instance in which his actual actions or words have demonstrated that he has embraced their separate beliefs. This is very much analogous to the “commie” remarks to which I originally alluded. Let’s not look at a person’s actual behavior, we can just condemn him or her because some of his associates are on the “wrong side” of our beliefs, even when he has demonstated opposing beliefs. Do you think that someone who associates with white supremacists are contaminated by this relationship? I certainly do. Chances are they have a common belief system. Maybe one socialist or neo-nazi in the associate list is okay but, eventually, you start to notice a pattern. Well, normal people begin to notice a pattern. > [@tomndebb](#): > > If one tends to work among the poor, one is going to encounter a lot of folks who tend socialist and even the occasional communist. Big time capitalists do not tend to hang out in those situations. Having friends and co-workers with specific beliefs does not, however, mean that one accpts all those beliefs at face value. If he has been so tainted by socialist associates, why did none of them make it into his cabinet or White House staff? > This claim is just silly. Calling yourself a Communist or socialist is merely a pose by some on the extreme left. Obama, like anyone with half a brain, knew full well that a “socialist” could not be elected president. I recognize that Obama has socialist tendencies (spread the wealth) but knows full well that any turn to the left would have to be incremental. Hence, his social democratic policies that are anathema to capitalism such as socialized medicine (or an incremental step in that direction), increasing subsidies for college tuition, and the creation of a “green” jobs sector by subsidizing favored technologies. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641/140 "2011-11-28T18:50:17Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Hence, his social democratic policies that are anathema to capitalism such as socialized medicine (or an incremental step in that direction) The plan you are trying to describe as “socialized medicine” was being pushed by Republicans 15 years ago, and it’s also very good for several private industries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-reverend-wright/603641.md?page=8)