# Obama and Rick Warren. Does this bother you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665 "2008-12-18T00:51:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/81 "2008-12-19T16:08:26Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > I agree that Obama is right in reaching out to members of the extreme right, of which (the extreme right, that is) Warren is on the left end. > > That being said, I think he could have expended a tad of his political capital in choosing someone to give the invocation who, while not being offensive to the right wing, would also not be offensive to the left wing. Although I’m straight, I find Warren’s push for Prop 8 and his dismissal of abortion as comparable to the Holocaust to be deeply offensive. But perhaps even more important, is it really sending the right message to the world that a man who has called for a policy of assassinating a hostile foreign leader (Ahmadinejad) is being given such a prominent spot in the first event of Obama’s presidency? > > It’s not a particularly politically savvy move, IMO. The people who like Warren are highly unlikely to support Obama no matter who says the invocation at his inauguration; they typically vote as an anti-Democratic bloc, guided by their pastors and FOX News. I have no problem with Obama meeting with Warren either socially or wrt policy, but I do have a problem with his giving such a prominent spot to a man who has actively campaigned to amend a state constitution to deny rights to others. So Obama ends up gaining little to nothing, while alienating a portion of his base. > > It’s early days for Obama, and I certainly haven’t given up hope on him, but I find this choice to be deeply disappointing. There are many deeply Christian leaders he could have chosen who would have been inoffensive to all sides, as is the case with Lowry. Reaching out doesn’t need to imply embracing. And frankly, I’m a bit tired with the long definition of compromise in the political sense as the extreme right refusing to budge while the left gives and gives and gives. This looks already to be happening with the Congress; now we have a slight indication that it might also be the case with Obama. I’m not pleased. I expected Obama to be centrist, but I didn’t expect him to slap the left in the face. This strikes me as a slap, albeit less of one than he could have chosen (it could have been Jerry Falwell, if he didn’t happen to be dead). Meh. Some of Rick Warren’s stances are bad, some are good. It’s just an invocation. Save the caring for when real policy matters come up. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/82 "2008-12-19T17:23:05Z")
Reading this thread give a rather stark reminder of how some people can create their own reality. In truth if you asked typical Americans to name a liberal pastor, you’d hear the name Rick Warren a lot. There’s no reasonable way that he can be classified as far right, even left end of far right. By most measures he’s mainstream. On most issues he believes what the majority of Americans believe. That why he wrote the bestselling book in American history. It’s also worth noting that in California almost a quarter of Obama’s votes must have come from people who voted yes on 8. Is Obama supposed to simply inform that chunk of his supporters that they don’t get any role whatever in his administration? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/83 "2008-12-19T17:55:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And would you say the same thing if he had a leader of the KKK up there instead, because a lot of Americans are racist and “Obama is their president” too ? This has already been largely answered, but I’ll respond with two important points: (1) Fortunately, the KKK is a tiny group. If we lived in a country where 40% of the people were in the KKK, well, that would be a horrifying country. But in that country I would expect someone like Barack Obama to reach out to the more liberal end of the KKK, even if the “liberal end of the KKK” was still hateful and bigoted in many of its views. (2) No matter how offensive we might find Rick Warren’s views, there’s a massive difference between saying “gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry” or even “gays are inferior” and actually committing acts of violence against gays. I (a straight liberal who is pro-gay-rights in just about every way I can imagine) can still treat someone who believes gays are inferior with the respect and civil disagreement due my fellow Americans. Someone who commits (or supports) acts of violence is a difference kettle of fish entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/84 "2008-12-19T18:08:21Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Meh. Some of Rick Warren’s stances are bad, some are good. It’s just an invocation. Save the caring for when real policy matters come up. Which is what I tried to say earlier, even if I did so badly. Its only my opinion that the folks I’ve seen on TV are whining, but I’m entitled to that opinion. It seems to me they’re saying “_ **You owe us, Obama!** _”…well, he _does_…he owes _ **every single voter period** _. Not just the ones that voted for him, because we’re all Americans. I like Obama. I think he’ll be a great president. I hope he does good things. But I’m sure he’ll do things that _ **I** _ won’t like and get upset about. \*When he’s in office. \* Warren is a non-issue. If the whining stopped no one would probably care about the invocation. Its not like Warren is being appointed to the cabinet. Come spring no one will even remember it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/85 "2008-12-19T18:22:19Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (2) No matter how offensive we might find Rick Warren’s views, there’s a massive difference between saying “gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry” or even “gays are inferior” and actually committing acts of violence against gays. I (a straight liberal who is pro-gay-rights in just about every way I can imagine) can still treat someone who believes gays are inferior with the respect and civil disagreement due my fellow Americans. Someone who commits (or supports) acts of violence is a difference kettle of fish entirely. No, it’s not. Getting married is something we allow even mass murderers - but not homosexuals. That makes it quite clear how our society regards them. That is the very idea that is used to justify violence against them in the first place - that their sexuality makes them monsters. When Warren equates homosexuals with pedophiles - with predatory criminals that many would like to kill out of hand - he’s justifying and encouraging violence against them. And when Obama invites him to speak, he’s placing his stamp of approval on that attitude and on that violence. > [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > It seems to me they’re saying “_ **You owe us, Obama!** _”…well, he _does_…he owes _ **every single voter period** _. Not just the ones that voted for him, because we’re all Americans. Apparently not. Apparently you’re not an American if you’re homosexual. > [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Warren is a non-issue. If the whining stopped no one would probably care about the invocation. Its not like Warren is being appointed to the cabinet. Come spring no one will even remember it. You don’t get to declare things a non-issue; the fact that so many are so upset MAKES it an issue. And this is the kind of thing that gets remembered for years, not forgotten by spring. I fully expect to hear this brought up years from now by gays, as the first point where Obama made it clear he was going to stab them in the back. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/86 "2008-12-19T18:27:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Apparently not. Apparently you’re not an American if you’re homosexual. I’m both, and if my citizenship has been revoked I’d really like to know before I get my W2s. As of yet though, it seems pretty much the same as it did the day before I learned Rick Warren was giving the invocation. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/87 "2008-12-19T18:44:44Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I’m both, and if my citizenship has been revoked I’d really like to know before I get my W2s. As of yet though, it seems pretty much the same as it did the day before I learned Rick Warren was giving the invocation. Because you weren’t regarded as a real American beforehand either. And of course the government is willing to take your taxes; just don’t expect to be treated with the respect that, say, a straight murderer gets. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/88 "2008-12-19T18:45:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because you weren’t regarded as a real American beforehand either. And of course the government is willing to take your taxes; just don’t expect to be treated with the respect that, say, a straight murderer gets. Straight murderers are respected? ETA: Ah, talking about marriage rights. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/89 "2008-12-19T19:11:20Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In truth if you asked typical Americans to name a liberal pastor, you’d hear the name Rick Warren a lot. I seriously doubt that. Cite that Rick Warren is considered liberal by people who aren’t incredibly conservative? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/90 "2008-12-19T19:21:59Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Reading this thread give a rather stark reminder of how some people can create their own reality. In truth if you asked typical Americans to name a liberal pastor, you’d hear the name Rick Warren a lot. There’s no reasonable way that he can be classified as far right, even left end of far right. By most measures he’s mainstream. On most issues he believes what the majority of Americans believe. That why he wrote the bestselling book in American history. > > It’s also worth noting that in California almost a quarter of Obama’s votes must have come from people who voted yes on 8. Is Obama supposed to simply inform that chunk of his supporters that they don’t get any role whatever in his administration? For the record, there are horror stories out there about how the Prop 8 people ran their campaign and the very big mistakes they made. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/91 "2008-12-19T19:23:56Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Which is what I tried to say earlier, even if I did so badly. Its only my opinion that the folks I’ve seen on TV are whining, but I’m entitled to that opinion. It seems to me they’re saying “_ **You owe us, Obama!** _”…well, he _does_…he owes _ **every single voter period** _. Not just the ones that voted for him, because we’re all Americans. I like Obama. I think he’ll be a great president. I hope he does good things. But I’m sure he’ll do things that _ **I** _ won’t like and get upset about. > > \*When he’s in office. \* > > Warren is a non-issue. If the whining stopped no one would probably care about the invocation. Its not like Warren is being appointed to the cabinet. Come spring no one will even remember it. The Republicans could very well be right. They won’t destroy Obama It’ll be the liberals that do. With that being said, I think his appointees were less to the Left than Bush’s appointees were to the Right. Unfortunately, that was done for political reasons, because Liberalism just isn’t quite _there_ yet. Done right, this will be a boon to the Left and could seriously put the Right in a huge hole for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/92 "2008-12-19T19:25:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s not. Getting married is something we allow even mass murderers - but not homosexuals. That makes it quite clear how our society regards them. That is the very idea that is used to justify violence against them in the first place - that their sexuality makes them monsters. > > When Warren equates homosexuals with pedophiles - with predatory criminals that many would like to kill out of hand - he’s justifying and encouraging violence against them. And when Obama invites him to speak, he’s placing his stamp of approval on that attitude and on that violence. > > Apparently not. Apparently you’re not an American if you’re homosexual. > > You don’t get to declare things a non-issue; the fact that so many are so upset MAKES it an issue. And this is the kind of thing that gets remembered for years, not forgotten by spring. I fully expect to hear this brought up years from now by gays, as the first point where Obama made it clear he was going to stab them in the back. I don’t. I wouldn’t hold my breath on that last sentence, if I were you. Oh, some of the very outspoken members of the LGBT community may, but the majority probably wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/93 "2008-12-19T22:05:00Z")
Well, okay. I guess a lot of you think it’s okay to engage in fear-mongering, lying and deception if it will advance your goals. I think it’s a disgusting way to behave, but many of you seem to be fine with it. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/94 "2008-12-19T22:19:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s not. Getting married is something we allow even mass murderers - but not homosexuals. That makes it quite clear how our society regards them. Really. So let’s perform an experiment. Let’s find a known convicted admitted mass murdered and known admitted homosexual. Let’s have them each move into towns in middle America near schools. Let’s send letters to everyone in the town saying “a (homosexual/mass murderer) has moved into your town and now lives at this address near a school” and see what happens. There’s plenty to be upset about in the state of gay rights in the US today, but there’s no need for hyperbolic hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/95 "2008-12-19T22:30:06Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Well, okay. I guess a lot of you think it’s okay to engage in fear-mongering, lying and deception if it will advance your goals. I think it’s a disgusting way to behave, but many of you seem to be fine with it. What or whom are you talking about? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/96 "2008-12-19T22:32:26Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > What or whom are you talking about? 😕 He’s accusing Warren of engaging in fear-mongering, lying and deception to accomplish his goals, and saying that the people who aren’t upset about him giving the invocation are ok people doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/97 "2008-12-19T22:42:10Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He’s accusing Warren of engaging in fear-mongering, lying and deception to accomplish his goals, and saying that the people who aren’t upset about him giving the invocation are ok people doing that. Warren giving the invocation really makes no difference to me. But I suppose that makes me some homophobic maniac that is ok with lying, deception and fear mongering. I guess Obama is too, then. Geez. This entire thing is ridiculous. Its as silly as calling someone that doesn’t like GWB unamerican. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/98 "2008-12-19T22:50:31Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He’s accusing Warren of engaging in fear-mongering, lying and deception to accomplish his goals, and saying that the people who aren’t upset about him giving the invocation are ok people doing that. No, that’s not what I’m saying at all, and I’ve state numerous times that I don’t view Warren’s invocation as that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. I’m objecting to people characterizing Warren as someone who simply has opposing views about gay marriage. The man is an unethical, lying sleazebag, and posters keep coming into this thread acting like the sole extent of his wrongdoing is his opposition to gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/99 "2008-12-19T22:52:44Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Warren giving the invocation really makes no difference to me. But I suppose that makes me some homophobic maniac that is ok with lying, deception and fear mongering. I guess Obama is too, then. Geez. This entire thing is ridiculous. Its as silly as calling someone that doesn’t like GWB unamerican. There you go again. First, people who had problems with Warren had an “us against them” mentality and now they’re the same as calling something “they don’t like” unamerican. You’re unending ability to trivialize unethical behavior is astounding.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665/100 "2008-12-19T23:02:47Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Really. So let’s perform an experiment. Let’s find a known convicted admitted mass murdered and known admitted homosexual. Let’s have them each move into towns in middle America near schools. Let’s send letters to everyone in the town saying “a (homosexual/mass murderer) has moved into your town and now lives at this address near a school” and see what happens. > There’s plenty to be upset about in the state of gay rights in the US today, but there’s no need for hyperbolic hysteria. I agree with your last sentence, but honestly, do you think there’d be a quantitative difference in the community reaction, especially if the mass murderer had solely killed, say, prostitutes? People _do_ get hysterical, especially the extreme right on this topic. There would appear to be a fairly significant segment of the population who think homosexual = paedophile. While I give Warren credit for knowing better, he has said he believes homosexuality to be on the same moral level as paedophilia, bestiality, and incest. Do you honestly believe that he thinks murderers are worse than paedophiles? Somehow I doubt it. I think there is over-reaction in the GLBT community, in that some are equating denying a right to marriage (even when allowing legally equivalent civil unions) to Jim Crow laws; the two are certainly motivated similarly, but the difference in degree is huge, IMO. I would also say that hard-core homophobia is less widespread than racism was until the early sixties. But I absolutely number Rick Warren among the hard-cores, and his fight to institutionalize discrimination in the form of a _constitutional amendment requiring it_ makes him, in my eyes, unworthy of the honor he is being granted. I mean, think about it. He wants not only to disseminate his attitude, but to force it on everyone not just by law, but by fundamental, overriding law - the constitution, and he worked hard for this lofty goal. It’s hard for me to accept this man being honored by actually opening Obama’s inauguration, and I’m straight; I have no dog in this fight personally. I can only imagine how people actually in the LGBT community feel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-rick-warren-does-this-bother-you/477665.md?page=6)