# Obama and the Art of War? is he following Sun Tzu? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815 "2008-11-03T03:54:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/1 "2008-11-03T03:54:30Z")
I am rereading the art of war and couldnt help but notice that Obama seems to be following quite a bit of the ideas contained therein. anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/2 "2008-11-03T03:56:49Z")
Which ones? A lot of the ideas in the Art of War aren’t exactly distinct to it, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/3 "2008-11-03T04:28:21Z")
I haven’t read _Art of War_, but among the snippets I’ve picked up are to prepare and plan in advance for every contingency, and if you have the strength, to attack your enemy on all sides, to force him to defend on all sides. Obama’s certainly done both of those. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/4 "2008-11-03T04:45:38Z")
[QUOTE=Sun Tzu] 11. What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. 1. Hence his victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom nor credit for courage. 2. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated. 3. Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy. 4. Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory. [/QUOTE] On the last point here I can picture McCain chanting “Fight with me!” 🙂 > [@](#): > > 1. In respect of military method, we have, > firstly, Measurement; secondly, Estimation of quantity; > thirdly, Calculation; fourthly, Balancing of chances; > fifthly, Victory. > > … > > The onrush of a conquering force is like the bursting > of pent-up waters into a chasm a thousand fathoms deep. Ready for Tuesday to see if we can turn Arizona Blue! 🆒 Even if we don’t make the state Blue it will be with the knowledge that we made McCain spend precious resources in his home state that he could not afford to use. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/5 "2008-11-03T07:52:02Z")
Its not like using _The Art of War_ for \*\*non-\*\*military purposes is unusual. Japanese businesses are said to follow its philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/6 "2008-11-03T08:01:30Z")
I am sure he has read a lot about the topic, not just Sun Tzu. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/7 "2008-11-03T15:26:30Z")
I’ve never read AoW but it’s something people are always talking about . . . As I understand it, the doctrine is to avoid head-to-head battle as far as possible, to win by wearing out and confusing the enemy. “When the enemy attacks, retreat; when the enemy retreats, harass.” Don’t see how that applies to the Obama campaign’s strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/8 "2008-11-03T15:34:45Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Its not like using _The Art of War_ for \*\*non-\*\*military purposes is unusual. Japanese businesses are said to follow its philosophy. I thought that was Miyamoto Musashi’s _Book of Five Rings_. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/9 "2008-11-03T15:35:59Z")
More murky connections to foreigners eh? Sun Tzu. What kind of name is that, anyway? Aztec? The more I hear, the more I think this guy isn’t a real American. I’ll bet this Sun Tzu guy is the real author of _Dreams of My Father_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/10 "2008-11-03T15:41:38Z")
Well, if not Obama himself, he has some smart educated people managing his campaign who no doubt recognize the value of well-considered strategery. In any case, did _Art of War_ introduce anything new, or was it just a codification of concepts that were already widely and informally known? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/11 "2008-11-03T15:56:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if not Obama himself, he has some smart educated people managing his campaign who no doubt recognize the value of well-considered strategery. > > In any case, did _Art of War_ introduce anything new, or was it just a codification of concepts that were already widely and informally known? It’s not really that the Art of War [great book!] introduces anything new, but what it does do is explain the philosophy of courage and tactical fortitude that many great leaders simply are too fearful to use. Obama has exemplified what **GiGObuster** linked to. His campaign set out for one purpose and one purpose only. To win. McCain was floundering in the beginning and in the background for most of the primaries. I do not believe the adjective “Floundering” has ever been used to describe the Obama campaign. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/12 "2008-11-03T16:02:37Z")
Sun Tzu? That’s nothing. I hear he’s “familiar with” the works of _Shan Yu_!! ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/13 "2008-11-03T18:49:35Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > I thought that was Miyamoto Musashi’s _Book of Five Rings_. Maybe, but it’s also the Art of War. It’s **incredibly** popular with young American businessy-types. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/14 "2008-11-03T19:00:12Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Maybe, but it’s also the Art of War. It’s **incredibly** popular with young American businessy-types. [The 48 Laws of Power](http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/cg/Courses/cgt411/covey/48_laws_of_power.htm) by Robert Greene was a NY Times best seller for a while. There is a lot written on the topic by many authors throughout history. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/15 "2008-11-03T19:05:18Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > I thought that was Miyamoto Musashi’s _Book of Five Rings_. It is although I wouldn’t rule out _The Art of War_ as a guide. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/16 "2008-11-03T19:10:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sun Tzu? That’s nothing. I hear he’s “familiar with” the works of _Shan Yu_!! So, you think that he’ll personally take charge of the whole “waterboarding” thing once he’s in office?, so he can “really” know his enemy? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/17 "2008-11-03T19:18:57Z")
“The Art of War” is so generic, broad, and common-sense in its guidance that pretty much ANY successful competitive endeavour can be claimed to have followed it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/18 "2008-11-03T19:41:57Z")
Agreed. I think Sun Tzu is incredibly over-rated. His “maxims” are so blindingly obvious. How do you say “Well, _duh_!” in Chinese? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/19 "2008-11-03T19:55:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “The Art of War” is so generic, broad, and common-sense in its guidance that pretty much ANY successful competitive endeavour can be claimed to have followed it. But it’s surprising how many, often unsuccessful, endeavors don’t. This season McCain seems to be following Custer’s lead, convinced that pressing the attack can overcome any enemy. Y’know–the kind of people Sun Tzu taught you how beat. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815/20 "2008-11-03T20:01:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Agreed. I think Sun Tzu is incredibly over-rated. His “maxims” are so blindingly obvious. How do you say “Well, _duh_!” in Chinese? Yeah, well basics have to be taught too. I never understood the concept of looking down on the 101 coursework. Everyone is a Freshman at some point. When Sun Tzu wrote it, it might not have been so blindingly obvious. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-and-the-art-of-war-is-he-following-sun-tzu/470815.md?page=2)