# Obama at Notre Dame **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773 "2009-05-17T19:20:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/41 "2009-05-18T03:36:26Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Yes, it is. No it isn’t. This is fun. Nope. All murders are mortal sins. It’s irrelevant whether the murderer thinks the victim is “guilty” of something. Humans are forbidden by Christ to make judgements on who should live or die except when it’s necessary to protect the lives of one’s self or others. > [@](#): > > The Catholic Church never codemned the war in Iraq. The Pope and several bishops clearly expressed their disgust with it and how it was carried out, however, their in no official pronouncement saying that Catholics should not participate directly or indirectly in it; i.e. being a soldier in the Iraq war was not in itself a sin (of course your actiond there can be sins). I think this is a distinction basically without a difference, The Pope is the official spokesperson for the Church and is Christ’s own delegated mouthpiece on Earth. By the way, [Pope digs Obama](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1898756,00.html?xid=rss-mostpopular), Obama won the majority of the Catholic vote in the election and his current approval rating among Catholics is a gaudy [67%](http://www.gallup.com/poll/118120/Obama-Approval-High-Among-Muslims-Jews-Catholics.aspx). The small group of whinging, hypocritical, grandstanding, children who protested the President’s appearance today are out of step with their own Pope (Christ’s personal representative under the very doctrine they say they care so much about), and with the vast majority of their own co-believers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/42 "2009-05-18T03:37:01Z")
> [@caligulashorse](#): > > Error! > Error! > Drink more koolaid… > Error! > Error! > Obamabot self-destructing. OK, that’s well below the semantic-content level of “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously” . . . What’s in **your** Kool-Aid?! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/43 "2009-05-18T03:39:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What’s in **your** Kool-Aid?! Asspartame… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/44 "2009-05-18T03:42:01Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The killing of a completely innocent person is “worser” than the killing of a reasoning adult man. 😕 No, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/45 "2009-05-18T03:47:04Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Ross Douthat put it well: Barack Obama pretends he wants to rise above the culture wars. In reality, he wants to win them for his side. We may hope! Economic conservatives have good arguments sometimes, but religious/social conservatives deserve nothing but contempt and dismissal. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/46 "2009-05-18T03:50:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Saying we need to focus on commonalities was exactly the right thing to say in my own radical left, pro-abortion opinion. Ah, the truth is out. Pro-abortion? I thought it was pro-choice? Pro-abortion? How creepy. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/47 "2009-05-18T03:53:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 No, it isn’t. Yeah, I wondered if there was any way to draw a distinction between a helpless fetus and a murderer. Turns out I was wrong! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/48 "2009-05-18T03:54:55Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Ah, the truth is out. Pro-abortion? I thought it was pro-choice? Pro-abortion? How creepy. Economic conservatives have good arguments sometimes, but religious/social conservatives deserve nothing but contempt and dismissal. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/49 "2009-05-18T03:56:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Economic conservatives have good arguments sometimes, but religious/social conservatives deserve nothing but contempt and dismissal. Are you pro-abortion too? Just so we know where you stand. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/50 "2009-05-18T03:56:48Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Ah, the truth is out. Pro-abortion? I thought it was pro-choice? Pro-abortion? How creepy. Most people who are pro-choice say they are not pro-abortion. I am the exception, not the rule. I think there should be a lot more abortions, and I think, in some cases, women should be rewarded with cash for terminating pregnancies (I’m talking about crackheads and the like, and I’d also require that they get their tubes tied). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/51 "2009-05-18T03:57:52Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Yeah, I wondered if there was any way to draw a distinction between a helpless fetus and a murderer. Turns out I was wrong! The difference is that a murderer is an actual person, not an imaginary one. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/52 "2009-05-18T04:00:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Most people who are pro-choice say they are not pro-abortion. I am the exception, not the rule. I think there should be a lot more abortions, and I think, in some cases, women should be rewarded with cash for terminating pregnancies (I’m talking about crackheads and the like, and I’d also require that they get their tubes tied). I agree, and also believe that forcible tube-tying would save the government a fuck of a lot of money in certain instances. The government pays for the procedure, you reap the benefits (keep on fucking). Win win. Although this idea would never fly. Waaaaay too controversial and…like China. Edit: I don’t think there should be MORE abortions, nor should there ever be FORCED abortions, but regulating pregnancies with proven welfare abusers is something I could get behind, if it could (unlikely ) ever be implemented properly. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/53 "2009-05-18T04:00:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Most people who are pro-choice say they are not pro-abortion. I am the exception, not the rule. I think there should be a lot more abortions, and I think, in some cases, women should be rewarded with cash for terminating pregnancies (I’m talking about crackheads and the like, and I’d also require that they get their tubes tied). Your ideas are disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/54 "2009-05-18T04:01:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The difference is that a murderer is an actual person, not an imaginary one. No, the difference is that a fetus will certainly become a person and cannot commit a crime, while the convicted mass-murderer is already a person and deserves the forfeiture of his/hers life if convicted of heinous crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/55 "2009-05-18T04:04:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think this is a distinction basically without a difference, The Pope is the official spokesperson for the Church and is Christ’s own delegated mouthpiece on Earth. Basically, I’m with you, Diogenes, and I think the Catholic Church’s all-but-explicit endorsement of the Republican Party under cover of being “pro-life” is cowardly and contrary to everything the Church teaches. I say this as an observant Catholic. That said, there is a difference between the Pope and some (or even most) bishops condemning the war in Iraq and it being official Church teaching that this war is wrong. It is true that there is an “official” Church position on what constitutes a just war, and that this war doesn’t meet the criteria, but that has nothing to do with anything this Pope said. The Pope may be “Christ’s own delegated mouthpiece on Earth” (not entirely sure what you understand that to mean, but OK, for the sake of argument), but that doesn’t mean that everything he says is infallible, is binding Church teaching, or even, for that matter, makes much sense. Sorry, I’m a bit incoherent – I’ve been working 14 hours straight. Just taking a break. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/56 "2009-05-18T04:05:27Z")
So where were all the good Catholics in [2001 when George W. Bush gave the commencement speech and received an honorary degree](http://newsinfo.nd.edu/news/6908-president-bush-to-address-notre-dame-graduates-at-commencement)? Bush was and is an enthusiastic proponent of the death penalty, which is officially condemned by the Pope and the Catholic church. Why was the integrity of Catholic doctrine not in danger when a death penalty proponent was given an honorary degree? Why is that any different from the abortion issue and Obama? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/57 "2009-05-18T04:06:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So where were all the good Catholics in [2001 when George W. Bush gave the commencement speech and received an honorary degree](http://newsinfo.nd.edu/news/6908-president-bush-to-address-notre-dame-graduates-at-commencement)? Bush was and is an enthusiastic proponent of the death penalty, which is officially condemned by the Pope and the Catholic church. Why was the integrity of Catholic doctrine not in danger when a death penalty proponent was given an honorary degree? Why is that any different from the abortion issue and Obama? Eye for an eye? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/58 "2009-05-18T04:11:01Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > No, the difference is that a fetus will certainly become a person and cannot commit a crime You are aware of the existence of miscarriage, right? Not all fetuses become people even without medical intervention. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > while the convicted mass-murderer is already a person and **deserves** the forfeiture of his/hers life if convicted of heinous crimes. (bolding mine) Judge not, lest ye be judged. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/59 "2009-05-18T04:11:52Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Your ideas are disgusting. Want to subscribe to my newsletter? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773/60 "2009-05-18T04:13:09Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Are you pro-abortion too? Just so we know where you stand. I’m in favor of abortion whenever and wherever the pregnant woman wants it and/or the treating physician deems it medically necessary, which is exactly the position of all good and decent people. Without exception. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-at-notre-dame/496773.md?page=4)