# Obama: bad for business? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538 "2018-06-06T14:18:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/21 "2018-06-06T20:41:20Z")
This isn’t supposed to be thread about Trump, but it is infuriating how Republicans refuse to acknowledge that today’s “red hot” economy is virtually a straight line continuation of the improvement during the Obama years. But lefties often miss this, too. When a hard-left friend of mine bemoaned how Trump is just making the rich richer, I informed her that the S&P tripled from 2009-2017. She didn’t believe me until I showed her a chart. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/22 "2018-06-06T20:43:47Z")
Well, you can’t fault poorly educated Republicans for believing that everything was shit during the Obama Administration. After all, that’s what their media kept telling them, and they refuse to believe that any of it could be lies. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/23 "2018-06-06T22:22:47Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The Trump economy doesn’t really start till 2018. In 2017 the country was operating under the budget made by the previous congress and Obama. This lag is true for any new president. > > If you look at the charts of the [economy](http://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/files/omnidownload/mev2018-uk-436.png) and [unemployment](http://www.nic.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Civilian_unemployment_rate.png) Trump is continuing a clear trend that started back around 2010-2012. While that is good I really do not think you can give Trump all the credit for today’s economy. And, to Sam’s point, the regulations, minimum wage increases and tax increases that were supposed to make the economy crash somehow didn’t. Now, we’ll have to see what the massive Republican deficits will do, as well as the coming trade wars. The tax cut seems to be helping the rich, just as expected. Including the business tax cut, much of which is going to stock buybacks which help the rich. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/24 "2018-06-06T22:24:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > …It’s the untold thousands of small regulations and requirements that really kill small businesses. A mom and pop shop now has to worry about meeting untold numbers of federal mandates along with state and municipal ordinances… This sincerely confuses me. My wife and I owned our own business for about a year and a half, ending in January of 2016 (it was literally “mom and pop” - we were the only two employees). I don’t recall “untold thousands” or “untold numbers” of federal mandates, in addition to state and municipal ones. Are you talking about the OSHA sign? Or paying income tax? I don’t think those were unique to Obama’s presidency, and that certainly doesn’t amount to some “untold” number. Perhaps you could help me understand this a little bit better by just listing a few that you are thinking of. > [@Silver Lining](#): > > Welfare went up, and the % of the people working in the labor force went down during Obama’s tenure. What you ignore, naturally, is the [mass exodus](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-baby-boomers-retirement-means-for-the-u-s-economy/) of the baby boomer generation from the work force. > [@Linked article from 2014](#): > > Nearly a quarter of Americans were born between 1946 and 1964, the typical definition of the baby boom generation. That’s more than 75 million people. In their heyday, the boomers were an unprecedented economic force, pushing up rates of homeownership, consumer spending and, most important of all, employment. It’s no coincidence that the U.S. labor force participation rate — the share of the adult population that has a job or is trying to find one — hit a record high in the late 1990s, when the boomers were at the peak of their working lives. > It’s been downhill ever since. The participation rate hit a 36-year low last month, and while there are multiple reasons for the decline, the aging of the baby boom generation is a dominant factor. In 2003, 82 percent of boomers were part of the labor force; a decade later, that number has declined to 66 percent, and it will only continue to fall. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/25 "2018-06-06T22:32:17Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Now, we’ll have to see what the massive Republican deficits will do, as well as the coming trade wars. These. The spineless, utterly unprincipled GOP would have spewed lizards from their eyeballs if Obama had run similar deficits or initiated similar tariffs. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/26 "2018-06-06T22:53:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Including the business tax cut, much of which is going to stock buybacks which help the rich. It also helps retirees, many of whom are not rich. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/27 "2018-06-06T23:08:02Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It also helps retirees, many of whom are not rich. IIRC over a third of US stocks are owned in retirement accounts. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/28 "2018-06-06T23:14:00Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It also helps retirees, many of whom are not rich. The AARP [does not seem to agree with you](https://press.aarp.org/2017-12-19-AARP-Letter-on-the-Tax-Cuts-and-Jobs-Act-of-2017/) on the overall impact of the tax changes on retirees: > [@](#): > > On behalf of our members and all Americans age 50 and older, AARP is writing to express our views on the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. AARP, with its nearly 38 million members, represents individuals affected by this tax bill. […] > > We remain deeply concerned by the negative effect the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act will have on the nation’s ability to fund critical priorities. The tax legislation will increase the deficit by approximately $1.5 trillion over the next ten years, and an unknown amount beyond 2027. The large increase in the deficit will inevitably lead to calls for greater spending cuts, which are likely to include dramatic cuts to Medicare, Medicaid, and other important programs serving older Americans. Indeed, the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has confirmed that unless Congress takes action, the reconciliation legislation will result in automatic federal funding cuts of $136 billion in fiscal year 2018, $25 billion of which must come from Medicare. Such sweeping cuts would be detrimental to an already vulnerable population. […] > > The expiration of several of the income tax provisions designed to provide individual tax relief, the introduction of chained Consumer Price Index to the tax code and, for many tax filers, the limitation of the state and local tax deduction, may result in little if any tax benefit for many older tax filers, and for others, a tax increase. In fact, given the distributional analysis of the Joint Committee on Taxation of the House and Senate tax bills, it is reasonable to anticipate that the Tax and Jobs Act may not deliver the tax cuts that older Americans anticipate, and will likely increase taxes for many. > > Furthermore, the repeal of the individual mandate will increase costs and cause millions of Americans to lose health insurance coverage. The CBO estimates that elimination of the requirement that individuals have health care will result in 13 million fewer Americans with health coverage over the next ten years. CBO also estimates that it will cause premiums in the health insurance marketplace to increase by approximately ten percent. As a result, premiums for 64-year-olds could increase by an average of $1,490. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/29 "2018-06-06T23:19:12Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It also helps retirees, many of whom are not rich. Yep, I’m sure they are just thrilled with [this:](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-health-202/2018/06/06/the-health-202-this-is-what-happens-to-medicare-when-you-cut-taxes-but-not-spending/5b16dc6d1b326b08e8839159/?utm_term=.c3c1063b9dd4) "Yesterday, we learned what happens when Republicans trying to rein in government tackle the tax side of the equation but not the spending side. The result: a Medicare program that is projected to run out of money just eight years from now, in 2026" ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/30 "2018-06-06T23:27:16Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > This sincerely confuses me. My wife and I owned our own business for about a year and a half, ending in January of 2016 (it was literally “mom and pop” - we were the only two employees). I don’t recall “untold thousands” or “untold numbers” of federal mandates, in addition to state and municipal ones. > > Are you talking about the OSHA sign? Or paying income tax? I don’t think those were unique to Obama’s presidency, and that certainly doesn’t amount to some “untold” number. > > Perhaps you could help me understand this a little bit better by just listing a few that you are thinking of. . . . I mostly hear gripes about ADA, EPA, and EEOC regulations - which don’t hit moms and pops as hard as they hit the big guys. Of course, I have relatives who think that having to get a building permit, with the electrical diagrams stamped by an electrician, is a burden. Dad bragged that the little town in Idaho that they’d retired to didn’t require building permits. Ten years and a few electrical fires later, they did. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/31 "2018-06-06T23:40:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And, to Sam’s point, the regulations, minimum wage increases and tax increases that were supposed to make the economy crash somehow didn’t. > Now, we’ll have to see what the massive Republican deficits will do, as well as the coming trade wars. The tax cut seems to be helping the rich, just as expected. Including the business tax cut, much of which is going to stock buybacks which help the rich. Yeah, the deficits and this stupid trade war nonsense threaten to undo it all. Republicans should be ashamed of themselves for presiding over a near trillion dollar deficit during economic good times and when they control all three branches of government. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/32 "2018-06-07T00:28:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Republicans should be ashamed of themselves for presiding over a near trillion dollar deficit during economic good times and when they control all three branches of government. They are the party of Trump. They have no shame. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/33 "2018-06-07T00:43:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The [Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_2008) was passed in October of 2008. That bill was signed by president Bush. That was before Obama was even elected. Except, Barack Obama _voted for it_. As did his opponent. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/34 "2018-06-07T01:41:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think Obama could reasonably be said to have weakened bankruptcy protection for consumers. He didn’t do everything he said to increase them, but that is not the same. > > The Chamber of Commerce thought his consumer protection initiatives was too heavy-handed and un-accountable - maybe that is what your friend means. > > Regards, > Shodan Possibly. I know that many conservatives don’t like the consumer protection. This friend was actually looking to invest in some check cashing stores at one point until I argued him out of it as an immoral business to be in one night over a bottle of scotch. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did he offer up any reasons or evidence to support this blanket statement? No, and I didn’t press him for any. We were at a social gathering and both he and I are sensitive of how partisan things are these days. Our wives have both made demands that we are not allowed to discuss politics if they are at the gathering. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The [Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_2008) was passed in October of 2008. That bill was signed by president Bush. That was before Obama was even elected. Right. I was thinking more of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, but it was a jobs/stimulus program, not a bill to boost to stop the bleeding. There is no way that he could have done loan forgiveness in this act. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/35 "2018-06-07T01:56:15Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Don’t look at the big regulations that we always seem to focus on. I think what happened under Obama was more an explosion of regulations issued by federal agencies and their bureaucracies. > > From Politico: [Obama pushing thousands of new regulations in year 8](https://www.politico.com/agenda/agenda/story/2016/1/obama-regulations-2016) > > It’s the untold thousands of small regulations and requirements that really kill small businesses. A mom and pop shop now has to worry about meeting untold numbers of federal mandates along with state and municipal ordinances. This requires hiring auditors and lawyers, and can really inhibit small business growth. The big corporations lve the regulatory state - they have the power and connections in place to sway the rules in their favor, they have entire departments with in-house lawyers to handle the messy work, etc. Small businesses have a much harder time of it, and therefore lots of regulations help keep them from growing and competing with the large corporations. Note how Dodd-Frank helped kill smaller banks and consolidate banking with the large banks. > > I have no doubt that Trump’s deregulation and tax cuts are a big part of why the economy is red-hot. Those are about the only good things he’s done. Thanks Sam, I can understand how over regulation, or indeed any regulation, could harm businesses. It may be that this is what my friend is talking about. This begs a few questions though, your link title claimed he was attempting to push a bunch of regulations through in his last 13 months in office, does this mean he was OK for businesses before that? Is it just the 8 examples in the article that were bad for business (I think the fiduciary rule makes sense, charge me more if you need to but represent me if I hire you!), or are there other examples of job killing regulations that Obama pushed. Better yet, is there any data that Obama’s policies were bad for business. I am just looking for a few concrete examples… Regarding Trump and his deregulation, tax cuts and the “red-hot” economy, I think we need to wait and see how effective he will be in the long term. It may very well be that Trump’s policies will spur long term growth, but I think it it too soon to tell. The unemployment rate and GDP growth are continuing along at the pace they were before he was elected and it is hard to attribute anything to Trump. That said, I don’t want to talk about Trump, I want to talk about Obama and the concrete damage he did to business (if it exists). ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/36 "2018-06-07T02:17:44Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Well when you consider all of the stimulus money borrowed and spent in the billions and the recovery itself was the weakest recovery since the great depression, how good was it? > > Welfare went up, and the % of the people working in the labor force went down during Obama’s tenure. Those are facts. > > Obama did not prosecute one of the wall street crooks. A man who once kept shaking his finger at the top 1% is not making money from them bygiving speeches. > > A complete sellout. So you are saying the stimulus bill was bad for business? How exactly? Welfare did go up, how was this bad for businesses? Also, even though welfare spiked in 2009-2010, by the end of his term it was back to levels below those seen under Bush, Clinton, Bush and Reagan as a percentage of GDP. [Cite](https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1980_2017USp_19s2li011tcn_40t_Welfare_Spending_In_20th_Century). Regarding the unemployment rate, I can look up the U-6 unemployment rate and compare it to the official U-3 rate and it is not a fact. While a lot of people were out of the workforce after the 2008 crisis, by the end of the his second term the unemployment rate (U-6, U-3, whatever), was back to where it was in 2006. [Cite](http://www.macrotrends.net/1377/u6-unemployment-rate). Regardless, what policies did Obama enact that besides causing welfare to go up and unemployment to sky-rocket were also bad for businesses. I would be happy to discuss unemployment, welfare spending, and how Obama was a cock-sucking socialist in other threads, this thread is about how Obama’s policies were bad for the business community and, this being Great Debates, you need to back up your opinion or shut your pie hole. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/37 "2018-06-07T02:26:48Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > To the OP - you are trying to argue facts. This isn’t about facts, this about mythology. The accepted mythology is that Democratic administrations are “tax and spend”, “bad for business”, “weak on defense”, and so forth. > > Now, is there some truth underlying these beliefs? Certainly, some. But for every verifiable fact supporting the myth, you could find a mirror image fact from a Republican administration that would also support the myth. But you would get nowhere pointing that out to your conservative friend. > > Arguing facts against beliefs is like singing about food, it may sound pretty but doesn’t begin to fill my belly. Exactly. I know it is about the mythology. I know that Democrats run up debt (even though it is the Republicans that eliminate the paygo rules and lower taxes while holding spending constant). This is why I started the thread here in GD even though I really wanted it in GQ. At least in Great Debates there is the expectation that people will back up their arguments with facts. I don’t believe Obama was “the one” and I even disagreed with a lot of what he did. I also don’t believe that Trump is “the destroyer”, though I wish he would shut his mouth and his gutting of the state department makes me sad. And don’t get me started on the EPA. Whatever, I just want to know if there is any evidence that Obama’s policies were bad for business? Any chart, statistic, figure, etc… that shows that businesses were worse off with a arguable connection to one of Obama’s policies. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/38 "2018-06-07T02:32:11Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Let’s see… Unemployment at record lows, GDP growth near 4% in the last quarter (!!), a recent jobs report that was described as ‘red hot’. > > Actual headline from the New York Times this week:[We Ran Out of Words to Describe How Good the Jobs Numbers Are.](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/upshot/we-ran-out-of-words-to-describe-how-good-the-jobs-numbers-are.html) > > Also, unemployment is at an all-time low for African Americans and Hispanics, and the number of open jobs recently exceeded the number of people looking for work for the first time in decades. Wage growth is up, and take home pay up even further due to the tax cuts. Consumer spending is exceeding estimates, and consumer confidence is the highest it’s been in 17 years. > > If you have been convinced that the economy is a disaster, you need to get out of the bubble. While I agree with you that the economy is doing well, very well in fact, I think we could argue at the cause. It may be that Trump’s policies of deregulation and his madman diplomacy are tweaking growth and I would be certainly open to data in this regard, I think it is probably too soon to tell. As others have pointed out, many of Trump’s policies did not take effect until this year as the 2017 budget was passed during Obama’s tenure. Also it took a bit of time for Trump to get traction in Washington and I don’t think he accomplished all that much in his first 6 months. But, regardless of how well or poorly Trump is doing, I want to know how Obama hurt the business community. I want some evidence. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/39 "2018-06-07T02:43:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The AARP [does not seem to agree with you](https://press.aarp.org/2017-12-19-AARP-Letter-on-the-Tax-Cuts-and-Jobs-Act-of-2017/) on the overall impact of the tax changes on retirees: The AARP is such an unbiased source. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538/40 "2018-06-07T02:49:25Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The AARP is such an unbiased source. Indeed. They are unabashedly and 100% admittedly a group meant to lookout for the best interests of retired people. So much so, in fact, that it is hinted at right in their name. As such they are an excellent source when it comes to assessing whether something is good for bad for retired people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-bad-for-business/815538.md?page=3)