# Obama/Biden 08' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2008, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017 "2008-08-23T12:12:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/61 "2008-08-23T17:24:53Z")
No, the chart shows that the more educated people are, the more likely they are to be liberal, but this changes with income. The more money people get, the more conservative they become. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/62 "2008-08-23T17:28:52Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] There’s another chart I couldn’t find this morning, from the Pew Political Attitudes project, which showed that as their educational level went up, the chance of a person being a Republican increased. The exception was the group of people with PhD’s, which contained more Democrats - I’m guessing because Republicans probably are over-represented in areas like MBA’s and Engineering, which tend to take you to the Master’s level, while Democrats tend to be over-represented in academia and education, which tend to take you to the Ph.D level. [/QUOTE] I don’t know what Dio is talking about because I can’t figure out how the chart shows that at all. Still… I suspect the correlation there is based on income. Wealthier voters are more conservative, and income level goes up as income rises. I would guess that the opposite is true with regard to traditional Republican \*social \* policies, but people vote with their wallets for the most part. ETA: I’m quietly pleased that the Obama camp has chosen not to bother with that geographic ticket-balancing nonsense. I’m quietly sad because I suspect that they may only have chosen not to bother because of the Edwards sex scandal. I’m quietly worried because ignoring stupid simplistic voter-appeasement areas like that is enough to lose an election. The electorate is ignorant and short-sighted, regardless of its average education level, and the smart campaign uses that to its advantage, no matter how distasteful it may be. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/63 "2008-08-23T17:29:54Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I wonder if it will mean anything at all to Hillary supporters that Joe Biden drafted and spearheaded the Violence Against Women Act. Taking that into account would require an application of rationality on the Hillaristas’ part, of course, but it’s a significant piece of women’s rights legislation and the Joebama Campaign should at least make it well known. [/QUOTE] Of the non-Clinton possibilities he was one of the ones least likely to anger them at least. Several others had more baggage. This indeed can be read as a peace offering to the feminist wing (given that Hillary was not going be the choice). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/64 "2008-08-23T17:31:45Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Lendervedder] The Republicans won the last two presidential elections doing exactly the _opposite_ of that. [/QUOTE] Got a cite for that? If it’s just your opinion, that’s fine. But I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/65 "2008-08-23T17:36:39Z")
I don’t know if the VP thing matters that much. Didn’t FDR win four terms with [edit: three] different VPs? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/66 "2008-08-23T17:38:56Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Got a cite for that? If it’s just your opinion, that’s fine. But I disagree. [/QUOTE] In 2000, Bush energized the conservative base by promising [del]to overturn Roe v. Wade[/del] to appoint anti-Roe Justices. In 2004, Bush painted Kerry as soft on terror. In both elections, every other issue became a footnote. It was suggested that the conservative base was re-energized in 2004 by an abundance of anti-gay marriage ballot initiatives, but the evidence is spotty. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/67 "2008-08-23T17:48:27Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] I don’t know if the VP thing matters that much. Didn’t FDR win four terms with [edit: three] different VPs? [/QUOTE] FDR was a special case. He was a war president _during a popular war_; this made him effectively untouchable. He could have tipped Larry, Moe and Curly as his VP candidates and probably not lost one vote in a million for it. 1932 - 472-59 ~18 margin in popular vote 1936 - 523-8 ~24% margin in popular vote 1940 - 449-82 ~10% margin in popular vote 1944 - 432-99 ~8% margin in popular vote The 8 and 10 per cent margins don’t sound like that much but they’re relatively huge. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/68 "2008-08-23T17:52:42Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] There’s another chart I couldn’t find this morning, from the Pew Political Attitudes project, which showed that as their educational level went up, the chance of a person being a Republican increased. The exception was the group of people with PhD’s, which contained more Democrats - I’m guessing because Republicans probably are over-represented in areas like MBA’s and Engineering, which tend to take you to the Master’s level, while Democrats tend to be over-represented in academia and education, which tend to take you to the Ph.D level. But in the end, the average educational level attained by Republicans was significantly higher than it was for Democrats. [/QUOTE] I don’t know if [this is the Pew link](http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=945) you are thinking of, as it doesn’t quite show what you are saying it does. Both parties are made up of sub-groups which have different attitudes, income levels, and education levels. Liberals are the most highly educated (or the most highly educated are liberal?) and of course tend to vote Democratic. “Enterprisers” are also well educated but with less having graduate education and make about as much as liberals do, and are more likely to be Republican. > [@](#): > > Huge disparities in education also divide both Democratic and Republican typology groups. Just 13% of Disdvantaged Democrats have completed college (9% college grads, 4% postgraduate), compared with nearly half of Liberals. Educational differences between Liberals and Conservative Democrats are nearly as large (49% vs. 16%). > > Among Republicans, just 15% of Pro-Government Conservatives have completed college, compared with 45% of Enterprisers. There also are wide disparities in education among the three independent groups, with Upbeats (37%) far more likely to have completed college than Bystanders (13%) or Disaffecteds (11%). It does seem that both the highest and least educated gravitate Democratic. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/69 "2008-08-23T17:58:33Z")
No, that’s not the chart - that’s a fairly new analysis that tried to break down each party into sub-groups. There’s another chart that had as a dataset polling data that was the result of asking people A) their educational level, and B) how they voted. They then plotted educational levels against the likelihood of being a Republican or Democrat, and it clearly showed that as education went up, people tended to vote more Republican, but the Democrats crossed over Republicans at the Ph.D level. My gut feeling is that the Republican data set is probably pretty evenly distributed, while the Democrats are probably pretty heavily bifurcated - with a skew at the bottom (the ‘disadvantaged democrats’), and a skew at the top (the academics). And as I recall, the numbers were actually pretty close among people who had a high school diploma, and nothing more or less. That would be your average middle American. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/70 "2008-08-23T18:09:53Z")
It’s funny that this thread has focused pretty much entirely on the effect of the Veep pick in November. I think Obama’s once again playing the long game and has made this choice based on Executive branch effectiveness from 2009 forward. And the more I consider Biden, the more pleased I am with that thinking. It seems clear to me that the election strategy from the Obama camp continues to be two fold: 1. Stick to the narrative (change, post partisanship, candor), and more importantly, 2. The ground game wins the election. Biden can’t do anything to hurt #2, and probably supports the post partisanship part of the narrative more than he impedes the change part. But Biden as Vice President will be able to move the Obama administration’s agenda through Congress much more effectively than any of the other favored picks could’ve hoped to - including Clinton. I continue to be impressed with Obama’s intelligence and management skills. He may not quite have Bill Clinton’s IQ or Eisenhower’s pragmatic vision, but he’s shown definite promise as an executive planner. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/71 "2008-08-23T18:20:12Z")
[QUOTE=xenophon41] It’s funny that this thread has focused pretty much entirely on the effect of the Veep pick in November. I think Obama’s once again playing the long game and has made this choice based on Executive branch effectiveness from 2009 forward. And the more I consider Biden, the more pleased I am with that thinking. [/QUOTE] This is the least predictable election in recent memory. Focusing on anything beyond the election is pretty much academic for those of us whose minds are made up (and aren’t likely to be offered a place in the Cabinet anytime soon). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/72 "2008-08-23T18:33:37Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Absolutely, who will McCain choose? Undoubtedly someone who picks up where he lacks… Isn’t this what all Presidential candidates do, if memory serves? [/QUOTE] Nixon picked Agnew because he was a kindred spirit, not because he could shore up any base Nixon did not already have or brought any skills or experience Nixon lacked. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/73 "2008-08-23T18:35:44Z")
I was hoping for Sebelius, but Biden is a good choice. Solid, well-established pol, no unknown quantities, safely white male. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/74 "2008-08-23T18:53:22Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] This is the least predictable election in recent memory. Focusing on anything beyond the election is pretty much academic for those of us whose minds are made up (and aren’t likely to be offered a place in the Cabinet anytime soon). [/QUOTE] We couldn’t agree less! Back in February before Obama had clinched the nomination, I told colleagues this was the easiest election to call since 1972. I still predict Obama wins the popular vote by at least five percentage points. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/75 "2008-08-23T18:53:37Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] In 2000, Bush energized the conservative base by promising [del]to overturn Roe v. Wade[/del] to appoint anti-Roe Justices. In 2004, Bush painted Kerry as soft on terror. In both elections, every other issue became a footnote. It was suggested that the conservative base was re-energized in 2004 by an abundance of anti-gay marriage ballot initiatives, but the evidence is spotty. [/QUOTE] Again, that’s an interesting opinion, but I’d call it a gross oversimplification. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/76 "2008-08-23T18:59:39Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnieEnigma] Oh, did he do that? Well, I bet the fact that MBNA’s home office being in Delaware has a lot to do with it. MBNA has this powerful strongarming lobbying syndicate. [/QUOTE] That had not occurred to me. Practically **every** major American corporation is incorporated in Delaware; corporate litigation is actually one of the foundations of the local economy. A man who has represented Delaware in the Senate since 1973 must be very intimately acquainted with corporate America. Whether he belongs to them is another question. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/77 "2008-08-23T19:21:24Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] … I’m quietly pleased… I’m quietly sad… I’m quietly worried… [/QUOTE] Please speak up. I can barely hear you! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/78 "2008-08-23T19:31:44Z")
[QUOTE=xenophon41] But Biden as Vice President will be able to move the Obama administration’s agenda through Congress much more effectively than any of the other favored picks could’ve hoped to - including Clinton. [/QUOTE] Exactly. It looks like he’s chosen a Vice-President who will be especially effective as [President of the Senate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_Senate). ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/79 "2008-08-23T19:32:06Z")
I’m watching Biden (on MSNBC) at a Rally. One thing I’ll say for him, he certainly has the fire in his belly. The guy’s nothing if not passionate. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017/80 "2008-08-23T19:33:45Z")
Watching Joe right now, and I am still happy with the choice. I do like his style of speaking. I think he’ll be of some help on the ticket, but of much more help post-election. That’s pretty awesome I think. What’s the deal with Sebelius? I know nothing about Kaine, I disagree with Bayh’s centrist DLC crap, but I did see Sebelius deliver the rebuttal speech after the President’s latest State of the Union and she was dismal. She was boring as hell and uninspiring. That’s the difference between her and Barack. Barack has always come through in the most opportune times. When he spoke at the DNC convention in ‘04 it was literally his _only_ shot at getting in this cycle. He did it perfectly. That was Sebelius’ main chance to do something. Are people seeing something that I’m not? She’s a democratic governor from a red state, true, but what else? She’s a woman? That’s not terribly important to me. I am liking this Joe Biden bad cop deal though. He sounds much more comfortable being on attack than does Barack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-biden-08/461017.md?page=5)