# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/1 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")
[In today’s speech on the Mideast situation(s):](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/middleeast/20prexy-text.html?pagewanted=7&_r=1) > [@](#): > > So while the core issues of the conflict must be negotiated, the basis of those negotiations is clear: a viable Palestine, a secure Israel. The United States believes that negotiations should result in two states, with permanent Palestinian borders with Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, and permanent Israeli borders with Palestine. We believe the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states. The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves, and reach their full potential, in a sovereign and contiguous state. I wonder if Obama even expects a second term, because he seems determined to cram everything into this one, including things that stymied his predecessors. First health care reform . . . then he calls for immigration reform . . . and now, independence for Palestine. Well, is this the time? Hamas and the PLA just made peace. I say that is good for the Jews – Palestinians vs. Palestinians right in your own back yard has got to be even worse than Palestinians United vs. Israelis. And it reduces the number of parties to negotiate with. What about the 1967 borders? Is that doable, if “swaps” means Israel gets to keep East Jerusalem and suburbs? But, then, how are the Israeli settlers on the West Bank going to be dealt with? Palestine has to be **contiguous** – there’s no place for Israeli enclaves. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/2 "2011-05-19T20:51:25Z")
Yeah, the “mutually agreed swaps” is the out he has to the oversimplified headline of “pre-1967 borders”. But why does Palestine have to be contiguous? It’s certainly desirable, but not necessary. The US isn’t contiguous. I know that’s not the greatest analogy in the world, but I don’t see why Palestine has to be contiguous. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/3 "2011-05-19T20:57:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, the “mutually agreed swaps” is the out he has to the oversimplified headline of “pre-1967 borders”. > > But why does Palestine have to be contiguous? It’s certainly desirable, but not necessary. The US isn’t contiguous. I know that’s not the greatest analogy in the world, but I don’t see why Palestine has to be contiguous. Well, he’s not talking about a land corridor between the WB and Gaza, so far as I can tell. But, it certainly would impede the economic development of Palestine if it were full of independent enclaves that you have to go around, or pass through a checkpoint just to drive past; especially if those enclaves include a lot of prime land and water access, which in they do. Furthermore, Palestine can’t really be independent if it has to tolerate IDF troops in its territory – and wouldn’t they be necessary, to protect the settlements? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/4 "2011-05-19T21:00:47Z")
As Jeffrey Goldberg points out, the President calling for an independent Palestinian State “based on 1967 borders” is nothing new. Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Ehud Barak all advocated for it. Also the ADL issued a statement praising the speech. [http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/nothing-new-in-the-idea-that-67-borders-should-guide-peace-talks-updated/239162/](http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/nothing-new-in-the-idea-that-67-borders-should-guide-peace-talks-updated/239162/) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/5 "2011-05-19T21:02:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, he’s not talking about a land corridor between the WB and Gaza, so far as I can tell. But, it certainly would impede the economic development of Palestine if it were full of independent enclaves that you have to go around, or pass through a checkpoint just to drive past; especially if those enclaves include a lot of prime land and water access, which in they do. Furthermore, Palestine can’t really be independent if it has to tolerate IDF troops in its territory – and wouldn’t they be necessary, to protect the settlements? Presumably, any enclaves that remain would be “mutually agreed” upon, and the Palestinians wouldn’t agree if they thought it would mean their state wasn’t economically viable. This will never work, though, because there is a significant minority on both sides that will not stop short of violence in order to have it all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/6 "2011-05-19T21:08:20Z")
[Map of Israeli settlements (magenta) on the WB.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Westbankjan06.jpg) Note that some few are between the 1967 [Green Line](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_%28Israel%29) and [the Wall](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank_Wall) – probably any “swaps” would put their territory on the Israeli side; but the rest would have to go. That’s about 300,000 Israelis – not too many for Israel proper to re-absorb, but presumably they would have to be compensated somehow (and not by Palestine). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/7 "2011-05-19T21:11:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > As Jeffrey Goldberg points out, the President calling for an independent Palestinian State “based on 1967 borders” is nothing new. > > Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Ehud Barak all advocated for it. > > Also the ADL issued a statement praising the speech. > [http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/nothing-new-in-the-idea-that-67-borders-should-guide-peace-talks-updated/239162/](http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/nothing-new-in-the-idea-that-67-borders-should-guide-peace-talks-updated/239162/) Well, according to CNN, Netanyahu don’t like it one little bit. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/8 "2011-05-19T21:15:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This will never work, though, because there is a significant minority on both sides that will not stop short of violence in order to have it all. Solution: We’ll give that minority the Gaza Strip. That is, **each** side’s violent minority gets the Gaza Strip. And lots of guns and ammo. Have fun, guys! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/9 "2011-05-19T21:24:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Solution: We’ll give that minority the Gaza Strip. That is, **each** side’s violent minority gets the Gaza Strip. And lots of guns and ammo. Have fun, guys! 🙂 Two ethnic groups enter…one ethnic group leaves! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/10 "2011-05-19T21:38:20Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Two ethnic groups enter…one ethnic group leaves! Is it strictly necessary that anyone leave? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/11 "2011-05-19T21:45:37Z")
Well, that’s the danger of course–the surviving Neo-Gazans will have undergone some Nietzschean transformation, and a generation after we seal them up they’ll bust out, conquer the world, and force us all to convert to strict Judislamism. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/12 "2011-05-19T21:48:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, according to CNN, Netanyahu don’t like it one little bit. That’s nothing new either. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/13 "2011-05-19T21:56:32Z")
> [@mebuckner](#): > > well, that’s the danger of course–the surviving neo-gazans will have undergone some nietzschean transformation, and a generation after we seal them up they’ll bust out, conquer the world, and force us all to convert to strict judislamism. “Muad’Dib!!!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/14 "2011-05-19T21:57:10Z")
But I wonder if Yitzhak Rabin would have gone for it? What’s Labor’s position on all this, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/15 "2011-05-19T22:23:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Solution: We’ll give that minority the Gaza Strip. That is, **each** side’s violent minority gets the Gaza Strip. And lots of guns and ammo. Have fun, guys! 🙂 2001 called. It wants its [Onion Article](http://www.theonion.com/articles/northern-irish-serbs-hutus-granted-homeland-in-wes,305/) back. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/16 "2011-05-19T23:58:57Z")
How do you provide Palestine with a contiguous state without dividing Israel in half? The main problem is the UN guarantee of right of return. This was a stupid idea from the get go. I understand why it was done with the forced movements that happened before, during and after WWII but it won’t work. As for 1967 borders? They were nearly indefensible with Israel being nearly cut in half. That will never fly. And why use the pre-1967 borders. They came about as the result of the 1949 war. If you can accept that the UN partition plan was nullified by the 1949 war, why can’t you accept that those borders were nullified by the 1967 war? It doesn’t follow. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/17 "2011-05-20T00:04:43Z")
If enough people, like several in this thread who apparently have no alternatives to offer, say “It will never work”, then it won’t. The problem is to \*make \*something work. Obama, like most of his predecessors, is saying he’s willing to try. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/18 "2011-05-20T00:11:55Z")
The Israelis aren’t going to agree to this. They have all the cards. They have a Super Power ally that never says no. They have a stable, prosperous, expanding, 1st world economy. Their antagonist uses terrorism so they have the world diplomatic moral high ground. They are perhaps the only nation ever that has grown larger one housing development at a time. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/19 "2011-05-20T00:24:27Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Their antagonist uses terrorism so they have the world diplomatic moral high ground. Don’t be so confident that the world doesn’t see Israel as using terrorism as well. Otherwise you’re right - the only “peace” they currently seem to want, or can even understand anymore, is that caused by subjugation. That approach does not have a history of working for long anywhere, though. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/20 "2011-05-20T00:30:52Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > As for 1967 borders? They were nearly indefensible with Israel being nearly cut in half. That will never fly. Didn’t Israel defend them, multiple times? They can’t be that indefensible. > [@](#): > > And why use the pre-1967 borders. They came about as the result of the 1949 war. If you can accept that the UN partition plan was nullified by the 1949 war, why can’t you accept that those borders were nullified by the 1967 war? It doesn’t follow. I think at this point its largely a practical concern. Most of the Palestinians are on one side of the '67 borders, most of the Israelis are on the other. Unless you want to move several million people around, they seem the obvious place to divide the two states. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=2)