# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/201 "2011-05-21T06:50:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I was responding to comments he made to me. And I told him to stop making those comments a couple of posts ago. > [@](#): > > I certainly didn’t respond remotely as forcefully as many if not most would have and merely asked him some questions as to where his hostility and anger came from. Nice try, but I’m not buying it. As I said, those kinds of comments don’t belong in this conversation, so I’m sure both of you can stop now. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/202 "2011-05-21T06:50:58Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > That was my point, Dio. It is something for Israelis to decide – not you. I’m not trying to decide, so spare me. > [@](#): > > You object to it No I don’t. > [@](#): > > I think that calling Jewish practice irrational, hypocritical, superstitious, and a variant of other memes is disrespectful. Disrespectful, yes. An “attack,” no. I don’t attack organized religion and often defend it from assertions that it causes all the evils in the world. I am very much a supporter of free belief and practice. That doesn’t mean I have to think it’s rational, though, nor am I persecuting or “attacking” anyone if I don’t. > [@](#): > > And I am sure you would’ve objected. Neither one of us really knows what we would have done, do we? > [@](#): > > Because you’re…not? What if I decided to start being observant? Would that make me a Jew? There are a lot of unobservant Jews, though, so is it as simple as me just deciding to identify as a Jew? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/203 "2011-05-21T06:52:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There are just two sides who are equally convinced that an invisible sky god gave them the same land, and both sides have a laundry list of reasons why the other side is evil and untrustworthy. You shouldn’t be so presumptuous about either side. The Zionists who founded Israel were mostly atheists and the founders of the PLO came from multiple religious backgrounds and never made any such claims. You seem to be making your own assumptions about both sides based on your own experiences with Christian extremists in the US. Considering that the most extreme religious party that makes up a sizable percentage of the Knesset(Yisrael Beitenyu) is overwhelmingly secular and many of the most bloodthirsty Palestinian guerillas aren’t even secular Muslims, that makes little sense. Leylah Khaled was motivated by many things, but not a belief in God and she certainly didn’t care about the Quran. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/204 "2011-05-21T06:53:54Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You wouldn’t be allowed to immigrate, Dio. Not unless you lied. What would I have to lie about. The right of return explicitly applies to people with Jewish fathers, and I’ve never converted to any other religion, so why would I not qualify? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/205 "2011-05-21T06:54:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And I told him to stop making those comments a couple of posts ago. At the time I was typing up the post you hadn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/206 "2011-05-21T06:54:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What if I decided to start being observant? Would that make me a Jew? There are a lot of unobservant Jews, though, so is it as simple as me just deciding to identify as a Jew? I don’t know why you’re asking _me_ what makes a Jew a Jew. I can give you the Torah version, the Israeli version, the Orthodox version, the Reform version…what? Are you asking me why I don’t personally consider you to be Jewish? I think I answered that. Not that it’s in any way relevant to the conversation. Back to the topic: A one state solution is not a solution. It either means that Israel ceases to be a democracy or Jews in Israel face Holocaust Round 2. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/207 "2011-05-21T06:56:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What would I have to lie about. The right of return explicitly applies to people with Jewish fathers, and I’ve never converted to any other religion, so why would I not qualify? Because of this caveat: > [@](#): > > (b) An oleh’s visa shall be granted to every Jew who has expressed his desire to settle in Israel, **unless** the Minister of Immigration is satisfied that the applicant > > ``` > (1) is engaged in an activity directed against the Jewish people; or > > (2) is likely to endanger public health or the security of the State. > > ``` Your anti-Zionist, one state solution position disqualifies you from citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/208 "2011-05-21T06:58:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What would I have to lie about. The right of return explicitly applies to people with Jewish fathers, and I’ve never converted to any other religion, so why would I not qualify? She would know better than I do, but I’m pretty sure they ask you if you consider yourself Jewish so if you don’t, then you’d have to lie. Once more, I think it’s silly to use the Law of Return to determine who is and isn’t a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/209 "2011-05-21T06:58:47Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I don’t know why you’re asking _me_ what makes a Jew a Jew. I can give you the Torah version, the Israeli version, the Orthodox version, the Reform version…what? > > Are you asking me why I don’t personally consider you to be Jewish? I think I answered that. The only reason you were able to give is that I don’t identify as Jewish. If I did decide to identify as Jewish, would _you personally_ accept me as Jewish? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/210 "2011-05-21T07:00:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > She would know better than I do, but I’m pretty sure they ask you if you consider yourself Jewish so if you don’t, then you’d have to lie. > > Once more, I think it’s silly to use the Law of Return to determine who is and isn’t a Jew. So if I really did decide to sincerely identify as Jewish, I would be Jewish? By the way, you don’t have to identify as religiously Jewish to identify as Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/211 "2011-05-21T07:01:23Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Because of this caveat: > Your anti-Zionist, one state solution position disqualifies you from citizenship. What a crock of shit. I’m not an anti-Zionist anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/212 "2011-05-21T07:02:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So if I really did decide to sincerely identify as Jewish, I would be Jewish? In my opinion, yes, If you genuinely consider yourself a Jew then you are one. Similarly if Mormons consider themselves Christian, then as far as I’m concerned they are even if many if not most Christians would disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/213 "2011-05-21T07:04:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m not an anti-Zionist anyway. Do you know what a Zionist is? You proclaimed you objected to the idea of the creation of a Jewish state. Have you changed your mind? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/214 "2011-05-21T07:06:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Do you know what a Zionist is? > > You proclaimed you objected to the idea of the creation of a Jewish state. I accept it as a _fait accompli_ now. I can also say I think much of the United States was stolen, but that doesn’t mean I’m anti-American. Why do you love Israel so much anyway? I though you claimed to be a Muslim? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/215 "2011-05-21T07:09:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > She would know better than I do, but I’m pretty sure they ask you if you consider yourself Jewish so if you don’t, then you’d have to lie. > > Once more, I think it’s silly to use the Law of Return to determine who is and isn’t a Jew. Exactly. No one uses the Law of Return to determine who is an who isn’t a Jew. Even the Reform have restrictions. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The only reason you were able to give is that I don’t identify as Jewish. If I did decide to identify as Jewish, would _you personally_ accept me as Jewish? If not, why not? “Identify as Jewish” could mean a lot of things. You seem to think that you’re racially Jewish…whatever that means. Considering your lack of Jewish mother and (apparent) lack of Jewish upbringing _and_ your rejection of Judaism, I’m not going to think of you as Jewish based on your “biological link” to Judaism. but that’s me. and that’s the majority of jews. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > By the way, you don’t have to identify as religiously Jewish to identify as Jewish. Yes, **Dio** , I have corrected many people on that issue, including you. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What a crock of shit. You understand that your swearing and beating down my comments as worthless doesn’t actually _help_ your argument, right? > [@](#): > > I’m not an anti-Zionist anyway. So you support the existence of a Jewish state? 😉 Of course not. I guaran-freaking-tee that if you were honest, your request would be denied. And rightfully so. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/216 "2011-05-21T07:11:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I accept it as a _fait accompli_ now. I can also say I think much of the United States was stolen, but that doesn’t mean I’m anti-American. > > Why do you love Israel so much anyway? I though you claimed to be a Muslim? Awesome use of far-right tactics! _Omg, why do you love \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ so much?_ Instead of Republicans asking Obama why he loves terrorists so much, you just changed a few words around. I don’t think Ibn is a lover of Israel. More like a person who has little tolerance for bad history and poor analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/217 "2011-05-21T07:14:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why do you love Israel so much anyway? I though you claimed to be a Muslim? I’m still chuckling at this. Using Israel as an insult. Israel-lover…isn’t that a euphemism now? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/218 "2011-05-21T07:17:56Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Exactly. No one uses the Law of Return to determine who is an who isn’t a Jew. Even the Reform have restrictions. None that would apply to me. > [@](#): > > “Identify as Jewish” could mean a lot of things. You seem to think that you’re racially Jewish…whatever that means. You’re being really evasive here, and I’ve never used the phrase “racially Jewish.” I wish you’;d quit making up shit I never said. > [@](#): > > Considering your lack of Jewish mother and (apparent) lack of Jewish upbringing _and_ your rejection of Judaism, I’m not going to think of you as Jewish based on your “biological link” to Judaism. [/quote] That’s not what I asked you. I asked if I would be Jewish if I decided to start sincerely identifying as Jewish. Who the hell are you to tell me I’m not? > [@](#): > > Yes, **Dio** , I have corrected many people on that issue, including you. You haven’t corrected ME on it. I’ve never thought it and never said it. You seem to live in a parallel universe where you constantly read posts I’ve never made. It’s really, REALLY tedious to try to have a discussion with someone who constantly makes up things I’ve never said. Please stop it. > [@](#): > > You understand that your swearing and beating down my comments as worthless doesn’t actually _help_ your argument, right? You didn’t make an argument. You were grasping at straws. > [@](#): > > So you support the existence of a Jewish state? I support the continued existence of the state of Israel. That’s not a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/219 "2011-05-21T07:17:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why do you love Israel so much anyway? I though you claimed to be a Muslim? I don’t and I am. You really need to learn better debating tactics. The ones you use make you look rather immature. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/220 "2011-05-21T07:24:14Z")
It wasn’t a debate tactic, just idle curiosity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=12)