# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/221 "2011-05-21T07:33:06Z")
[quote=“Diogenes\_the\_Cynic, post:218, topic:582500”] None that would apply to me. No, Dio. The Reform movement excepts offspring of Jewish males _if_ they were raised Jewish and identify as such. > [@](#): > > You’re being really evasive here, and I’ve never used the phrase “racially Jewish.” I wish you’;d quit making up shit I never said. You keep saying that Israel has racist policies. That indicates you think of Jews as a race. And Palestinians, too. That’s weird, because Palestinians are _Arabs_, even though not all Palestinians are descendants of Arabs. Arab is a geographical term. Once upon a time, you could be an “Arab Jew”, but no longer. Now you’re just a Jew, an Israeli, or some other such designation as a Jew living in an Arab state. Arabism has taken care of that one. > [@](#): > > That’s not what I asked you. I asked if I would be Jewish if I decided to start sincerely identifying as Jewish. But you aren’t. So it’s not an issue. > [@](#): > > Who the hell are you to tell me I’m not? :dubious: Who are you to tell me _I’m_ not? YOU said you weren’t Jewish. > [@](#): > > You didn’t make an argument. You were grasping at straws. I am not. I pointed out that you would not be allowed to immigrate to Israel and that Israel’s immigration policies are not racially motivated. If anything, Israel has proved the exact opposite! > [@](#): > > I support the continued existence of the state of Israel. That’s not a lie. You do not. You support a one-state solution in which Israel encompasses the entire region. That is not the support of the Israeli state. I am sorry if you really sincerely think so. It means you must think that Hamas and PLO are not a threat to Israelis. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/222 "2011-05-21T07:35:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t and I am. > > You really need to learn better debating tactics. > > The ones you use make you look rather immature. See. Proof that a Muslim and a Jew can slice through rhetoric bullshit without both of us being Israel-lovers. Ain’t life grand. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/223 "2011-05-21T07:39:35Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > No, Dio. The Reform movement excepts offspring of Jewish males _if_ they were raised Jewish and identify as such. Cite? > [@](#): > > You keep saying that Israel has racist policies. That indicates you think of Jews as a race. And Palestinians, too. Nope. There is no such thing as race. That doesn’t mean that racism doesn’t exist. > [@](#): > > But you aren’t. So it’s not an issue. You’re avoiding the question. The truth is, the only thing that stops me from being just as Jewish as you is me _deciding_ that I am. For some reason, this really bothers you. > [@](#): > > YOU said you weren’t Jewish. Not today, but if I decide I am tomorrow, then I am. > [@](#): > > I am not. I pointed out that you would not be allowed to immigrate to Israel You have not “pointed this out.” You have just asserted on the basis of the incredibly lame argument that I would be a threat to the state of Israel. > [@](#): > > You do not. You support a one-state solution in which Israel encompasses the entire region. No I don’t. I don’t think it’s feasible. I think it would be an ideal only in the most theoretical way (and, for the record, there are Israeli citizens who agree that this would be the ideal. it’s not a disqualification for citizenship) I have no desire to overthrow the state of Israel. I have half mind to immigate there now just to piss you off. ;). ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/224 "2011-05-21T08:00:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite? [About.com](http://judaism.about.com/od/interfaithquestions/f/jewname_interf.htm) is questionable at times, but the URJ website is [here](http://urj.org//index.cfm?), and you can hit search for articles on the subject. Unless the Reform and Masorti movements have been lying the last ten years, I think I’m right on this one. Actually, I can’t think of anytime where you’ve schooled me on Jewish law, but hey, that’s not the point. > [@](#): > > According to the Reform Movement, a child with one Jewish parent is considered Jewish if he or she is identified as a Jew through “appropriate and timely public acts” – acts such as a B’rit Milah for a boy or an equivalent covenant ritual for a girl. The interpretation of the phrase, “appropriate and timely public acts,” is left to the discretion of individual Reform rabbis. > > To my mind, it is unfortunate that there was no ritual of B’rit Milah if the intention is to raise the child as a Jew. B’rit Milah would have assured the boy a Jewish identity from the perspective of nearly all of Reform Judaism. The parents now must discuss with a rabbi their options for ritually identifying the child as a Jew. Different Reform rabbis will offer different options for such a ritual, including the option of Hatafat Dam B’rit. > [@](#): > > Nope. There is no such thing as race. That doesn’t mean that racism doesn’t exist. But you keep saying Israel has racist immigration policies when they do not. Egalitarian? Maybe. Racist? No. > [@](#): > > You’re avoiding the question. The truth is, the only thing that stops me from being just as Jewish as you is me _deciding_ that I am. For some reason, this really bothers you. Who is deciding? You or me? 😕 You said you weren’t Jewish. I repeated it and you had a tizzy. For the record, I don’t consider the Jewish-born Jews for Jesus to be Jewish, either. And Noam Chomsky can hurl himself into a vat of boiling tar for all I care. People like that are a non-issue and not part of conversations about Jewish law. > [@](#): > > You have not “pointed this out.” You have just asserted on the basis of the incredibly lame argument that I would be a threat to the state of Israel. That’s fine if you think the argument is lame. It does not change the Ministry’s policy. You would have a hard time gaining citizenship without lying on your papers. Cripes. You could have a hard time flying on El Al if you answered security questions with commentary like you’ve said here. > [@](#): > > No I don’t. I don’t think it’s feasible. I think it would be an ideal only in the most theoretical way So why advocate it? > [@](#): > > (and, for the record, there are Israeli citizens who agree that this would be the ideal. it’s not a disqualification for citizenship) Actually, Israel…nevermind… > [@](#): > > I have no desire to overthrow the state of Israel. You just don’t seem to mind that it’s a huge possibility and you consider it to be illegitimate. > [@](#): > > I have half mind to immigate there now just to piss you off. ;). Go. I’m sure you’ll be treated well. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/225 "2011-05-21T08:13:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Both of you are out of line, and I’m giving you each a formal warning. **Naxos** , your behavior needs to improve if you want to be on this site in the long term. **Alessan** , what you said is not allowed on this site in any language (and we prefer people post in English). **Marley** , I apologize. \*\*Naxos \*\*may have touched a major nerve, but I should have been able to control myself. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/226 "2011-05-21T08:15:03Z")
Am I the only one who noticed how Obama was silent on Egypt and Syria until he HAD to say something? It’s Congress who is pressing Obama re: Syria and Hamas, and now all of the sudden Obama wants to give Egypt $2billion? For what? Their crackpot militant democracy? Egypt is a mess. Does Obama care about Yemen? Tehrain? Nigeria?! _No._ Syria and Egypt are hostile to Israel now. Overnight, Obama has a “plan” for the two state solution. :rolleyes: Instead of actually being diplomatic about it, he totally undermined Israel’s PM. This signals to me that he wasn’t that sincere. Netanyahu has pissed off Likud enough the last two years…I don’t think he is against borders **based** on the 67 line. What he is against (and should be) is the idea that Obama can set for him some preconditions without fully realizing what Hamas and PLO means to Israel. Obama says nothing off the hook. Those comments were deliberate. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/227 "2011-05-21T11:59:10Z")
This is a discussion about Israel, isn’t it? Isn’t there…a certain _someone_ missing from this conversation? Wherefore art thou? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/228 "2011-05-21T13:22:28Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > This is a discussion about Israel, isn’t it? > > Isn’t there…a certain _someone_ missing from this conversation? > > Wherefore art thou? The man is not your butt-monkey. If he feels like sitting this one out, he’s well within his rights. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/229 "2011-05-21T14:10:57Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Race and religion matter here, no matter what your glossy eyed vision is. Religion might be an insuperable divide, but as for “race,” aren’t the Palestinians cousins of the Jews? The Palestinians are the descendants of all of the peoples who have ever lived in or invaded or colonized Canaan – Canaanites, Jews, Egyptians, Philistines, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, “Franks” (European Crusaders), Turks, etc. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/230 "2011-05-21T14:14:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The man is not your butt-monkey. If he feels like sitting this one out, he’s well within his rights. Whoa, wait a sec. I _like_ **Finn**. I was just kidding around and thought that his absence in a discussion like this was…kinda glaring. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/231 "2011-05-21T14:28:36Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Whoa, wait a sec. I _like_ **Finn**. I was just kidding around and thought that his absence in a discussion like this was…kinda glaring. While it is rather challenging to imagine the circumstances in this day and age, I imagine that are some that occasionally keep some Dopers from posting for a few days. Personal business, perhaps . . . though it would have to be something rather more important than a honeymoon or the death of a loved one . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/232 "2011-05-21T14:46:07Z")
Old Jewish joke: Golda picked up a broken fork at the flea market. “How much?” “A penny,” answered Smulowitz. “A penny!” she grumbled. “Too much!” “So make me an offer.” Netanyahu says the 1967 Green Line is an “indefensible” border between Israel and Palestine. What border would be defensible, Bennie? Draw us a line on the map and we’ll go from there. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/233 "2011-05-21T15:21:46Z")
Apparently the one he has in mind is the Jordan River. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/234 "2011-05-21T15:25:45Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Syria and Egypt are hostile to Israel now. Overnight, Obama has a “plan” for the two state solution. :rolleyes: Instead of actually being diplomatic about it, he totally undermined Israel’s PM. This signals to me that he wasn’t that sincere. What would be “diplomatic” about it? Seems to me you’re thinking that this is how it should have been done: O: Hey, Bibi, how about I go and have a major speech and announce 1967 borders as basis for 2 state solution? N: Don’t like it! O: Oh, ok, nevermind. No speech then. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > I don’t think he is against borders **based** on the 67 line. So when he says that he is against 1967 borders he is saying he is against 1967 borders? :dubious: Excellent idea on how to, 5 years from now, revise this event and argue that Israeli PM was, “in fact”, okay with it. And then add, Palestinians are the ones who rejected it first. This whole fiasco shows that Israel is not interested in resolving anything and keep expanding and keep subjugating people against their will. Partly, I think, because there’s a significant layer of political elite in Israel that simply does not know any other way but this. One can only hope that there will be no major war in next 10-15 years for that generation to retire or die-off and then have politicians who are not formed and matured in the midst of the war. Because, the only ones who hold all the cards are Israelis and they are, regardless if Palestinians like it or not, their only hope for just solution. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/235 "2011-05-21T17:28:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Religion might be an insuperable divide, but as for “race,” aren’t the Palestinians cousins of the Jews? The Palestinians are the descendants of all of the peoples who have ever lived in or invaded or colonized Canaan – Canaanites, Jews, Egyptians, Philistines, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, “Franks” (European Crusaders), Turks, etc. Huh? You really buy the “Palestinians have been here millenia” crap? > [@newcomer](#): > > What would be “diplomatic” about it? Seems to me you’re thinking that this is how it should have been done: > > O: Hey, Bibi, how about I go and have a major speech and announce 1967 borders as basis for 2 state solution? > N: Don’t like it! > O: Oh, ok, nevermind. No speech then. You don’t think it’s a little weird that the U.S. attempted to subject a unilateral force onto two other countries? > [@](#): > > So when he says that he is against 1967 borders he is saying he is against 1967 borders? :dubious: Strict adherence to, yes. It isn’t that Obama’s idea can’t mesh with Bibi’s (and I’m typing out Bibi these days not out of affection but out of laziness). It’s the way he went about it. He told Israel to start at 1967. It sounds like petty semantics, but it isn’t. I think the question of Right of Return will be a bigger explosion. I love how Palestinians don’t want a single Jew on their land but expect Israel to take in millions of their people. > [@](#): > > Excellent idea on how to, 5 years from now, revise this event and argue that Israeli PM was, “in fact”, okay with it. And then add, Palestinians are the ones who rejected it first. Well, we’ll see. I’m sure you’ll still be here to talk about it in a few months. 😉 As you’ll note, the PA is not willing to give up its partnership with Hamas and thinks of 67 armistice line as, well, literal. > [@](#): > > This whole fiasco shows that Israel is not interested in resolving anything and keep expanding and keep subjugating people against their will. Partly, I think, because there’s a significant layer of political elite in Israel that simply does not know any other way but this. One can only hope that there will be no major war in next 10-15 years for that generation to retire or die-off and then have politicians who are not formed and matured in the midst of the war. I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion. Israel didn’t walk away. > [@](#): > > Because, the only ones who hold all the cards are Israelis and they are, regardless if Palestinians like it or not, their only hope for just solution. They do have more cards, so it’s ridiculous to expect Israel to go to back to the strict 1967 armistice line. Re: Defensible borders: I’m sure you’ll get that map proposal soon. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/236 "2011-05-21T17:42:12Z")
I’m worried about conflict inside Israel right now. If Arab-Israeli tension is getting worse and a supposed 1/3 of them think Israel will be run by Palestinians someday, that spells trouble. I can see Arab Israelis who are completely innocent getting caught in the ‘crossfire’ if it comes to that. I see quotes from Arab boys saying that it’s war. That’s kind of disquieting. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/237 "2011-05-21T17:53:56Z")
[So Netanyahu tells Obama](http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/israel-cannot-go-back-to-the-1967-lines-netanyahu-tells-obama/) “While Israel is prepared to make generous compromises for peace, it cannot go back to the 1967 lines,\*\* because these lines are indefensible\*\*; because they don’t take into account certain changes that have taken place on the ground, demographic changes that have taken place over the past 44 years.” Meanwhile Israel builds small isolated settlements [all over the fucking place](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg) that apparently _are_ defensible. I dare someone to defend Israels position on this. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/238 "2011-05-21T18:01:54Z")
Obama said that the 67 borders must be the starting point, but then he said that Gaza and the Wests Bank must be contingent borders. That can be interpreted in a whole mess of ways. I’m fine with contingency. I agree. But that has to come from Israel and the PA. I’m _not_ fine with Hamas running the show. Somewhere stuck in a folder or at the bottom of a closet somewhere, there’s an essay I wrote for a foreign policy class. I argued for:[ul] [li]Secure borders for Israel (so Golan Heights is now non-negotiable, as is the silly idea Israel can go back to an 8 mile distance between Tel Aviv and the territories)[/li][li]Demilitarized Palestine[/li][li]Contingent borders (either via annexation of Gaza and part of the Negev to the PA, annexation of Gaza by Egypt, or some kind of agreement that works for all parties involved)[/li][li]Infrastructure in Palestine: esp. water & agriculture (something that Israel can help provide - they could have starved out Palestine by now but haven’t - so some kind of development and agreement needs to be in place)[/li][li]Rejection of Right of Return, but some kind of aid/infrastructure compensation (not directly handed to the PA) in recognition of their suffering[/li][li]Annexation of major settlement blocs[/li][li]A potential trade agreement between Israel and the New Palestine[/li][li]Allowing Israel businesses to benefit from the development of a new Palestine if they wish to invest in infrastructure (with labor rights being extended to Palestinians)[/li][/ul] I also said that Jerusalem and holy places should be overseen by an international body, but we know that hasn’t worked. :o So at this point, honestly, if Jerusalem is being controlled by Israel after a war that she rightfully won, I think it’s silly - actually - it will never happen, so - it’s downright stupid to think that Israel will give it up. I do support access to Jerusalem, though. The security concerns are completely valid, but it shouldn’t be closed forever. But none of this works without a third-party military presence in the area. And that’s not something the US is willing to do. Drawing new borders and handing the PA a shiny new flag in a picture frame doesn’t automatically secure peace. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/239 "2011-05-21T18:06:28Z")
Balian de Ibelin should be put in charge of Jerusalem. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/240 "2011-05-21T18:08:24Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > [So Netanyahu tells Obama](http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/israel-cannot-go-back-to-the-1967-lines-netanyahu-tells-obama/) “While Israel is prepared to make generous compromises for peace, it cannot go back to the 1967 lines,\*\* because these lines are indefensible\*\*; because they don’t take into account certain changes that have taken place on the ground, demographic changes that have taken place over the past 44 years.” They aren’t realistic. Not the strict ‘green line’, no. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile Israel builds small isolated settlements [all over the fucking place](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg) that apparently _are_ defensible. Couple of problems wrong with your wikiways. One, this map shows populated areas - not all are settlements. (: The settlements are supposed to be the dark purple, right? I can’t read it well. They are guarded by IDF and members of the kibbutzim/settlement/whatever. I _think_ some of those are military installations, but again, I can’t tell with the tiny map. Bibi has already hinted he’d be willing to give those up…he was criticized for that big-time. I think he will. I don’t think the military outposts will go away, but the settlements are likely to be disbanded. > [@](#): > > I dare someone to defend Israels position on this. What? The position that in order for Palestine to be self-governing and self-policing, they would have to be disbanded? I defend that position. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=13)