# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/241 "2011-05-21T18:08:37Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I dare someone to defend Israels position on this. Yet I’m sure someone will come along in a few minutes and do just that. I hate Israel threads, so, so much special pleading. Does anyone really expect us to believe that Netanyahu has done a little “I Can Change” number like thee Devil in the South Park movie and is now in the peace camp. Hispolitcal career has been pretty much defined my opposing any sort of peace deal with the Palestinians and whilst he now says he wants peace he’s done nothing more than make a few half-hearted gestures in order to try and deflect criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/242 "2011-05-21T18:51:19Z")
P.S. Palestinians used to be employed by those in the settlements, but I think the PA outlawed that. Not sure if it still stands. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/243 "2011-05-21T18:52:26Z")
> [@These are my own pants](#): > > Yet I’m sure someone will come along in a few minutes and do just that. I hate Israel threads, so, so much special pleading. > > Does anyone really expect us to believe that Netanyahu has done a little “I Can Change” number like thee Devil in the South Park movie and is now in the peace camp. Hispolitcal career has been pretty much defined my opposing any sort of peace deal with the Palestinians and whilst he now says he wants peace he’s done nothing more than make a few half-hearted gestures in order to try and deflect criticism. I donno. He’s been saying it for two years. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/244 "2011-05-21T18:55:53Z")
> [@Benjamin Netanyahu](#): > > “While Israel is prepared to make generous compromises for peace, it cannot go back to the 1967 lines, because these lines are indefensible; because they don’t take into account certain changes that have taken place on the ground, demographic changes that have taken place over the past 44 years.” :dubious: Seems to me the only relevant “changes that have taken place on the ground, demographic changes that have taken place over the past 44 years” are the settlements. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/245 "2011-05-21T18:56:04Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Couple of problems wrong with your wikiways. One, this map shows populated areas - not all are settlements. The dark purple are settlements, and it’s all over. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > They are guarded by IDF and members of the kibbutzim/settlement/whatever. I _think_ some of those are military installations, but again, I can’t tell with the tiny map. Click on it, you can zoom in. And I’m sure they _are_ guarded by IDF, my point is Netenyahu is arguing the '67 borders are a liability to Israeli security, however ongoing prolific settlement construction is not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/246 "2011-05-21T19:00:20Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Balian de Ibelin should be put in charge of Jerusalem. No, it should be [The Harlot of Jerusalem!](http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/song-midis/Harlot_of_Jerusalem_%283%29.htm) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/247 "2011-05-21T19:01:52Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > They aren’t realistic. Not the strict ‘green line’, no. So? What line would be? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/248 "2011-05-21T19:05:38Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Huh? You really buy the “Palestinians have been here millenia” crap? [Yes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#DNA_and_genetic_studies) > [@](#): > > In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that, at least paternally, most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians — and in some cases other Levantines — are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews to non-Jewish Europeans.[107] > > One DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim concluded that genetic evidence coincides with historical accounts that at least part of the Arab Israeli and Palestinian population is mainly descended from local Christians and Jews “who had converted [to Islam] after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century A.D.”[108][109][110] These Christian and Jewish converts are believed to be descended from a “core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times.”[111] The study also discovered significant genetic mixing between these converts and incoming Arab tribes during the first millennium AD, as well as parallel genetic mixing of the Jewish population with the local peoples throughout the Jewish diaspora.[108] ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/249 "2011-05-21T19:09:22Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > The dark purple are settlements, and it’s all over. > Click on it, you can zoom in. > > And I’m sure they _are_ guarded by IDF, my point is Netenyahu is arguing the '67 borders are a liability to Israeli security, however ongoing prolific settlement construction is not. Some are outposts. The military presence helps secure them (I believe you call it occupation) though they aren’t immune to rockets. That’s the point: withdrawing from WB means disbanding those settlements. I never objected to that and it doesn’t look like Netanyahu will either. It was easy for him to criticize Sharon when it was politically expedient. Now he’s in the same position. I can’t help you if you don’t understand the difference between _literal_ armistice line and _around_ the line. It was war. They won. It’s not odd to think they’re going to call some of the shots. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/250 "2011-05-21T19:11:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Yes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#DNA_and_genetic_studies) Sounds like you just made the case for a historical claim to Israel - for Jews. :dubious: Few Palestinians can trace their family back to the land for generations and generations. In fact, ones who can are usually the Boudin, Druze, or some Jewish families in Jerusalem. Whooop de do. People tied to the Levant share some similar genetic markers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/251 "2011-05-21T19:13:05Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Some are outposts. > > The military presence helps secure them (I believe you call it occupation) though they aren’t immune to rockets. That’s the point: withdrawing from WB means disbanding those settlements. I never objected to that and it doesn’t look like Netanyahu will either. 😕 Eh? Seems to me that disbanding the settlements is **exactly** what Netanyahu objects to. Or, is he willing to disband some but not all? Has he made any statements on this? ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/252 "2011-05-21T19:19:57Z")
It is literally impossible to read the assertion that the pre-67 borders are “indefensible” and not laugh a little bit. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > I do agree that Israel rightfully has the upper hand here and shouldn’t be punished for their wins Cool, good to know I can keep this TV I stole. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/253 "2011-05-21T19:22:20Z")
BTW, do we have any Palestinian Dopers? And, do we have any Palestinian Dopers who live in the OTs? (Must be hard to find a good Internet connection there . . .) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/254 "2011-05-21T19:39:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Eh? Seems to me that disbanding the settlements is **exactly** what Netanyahu objects to. Or, is he willing to disband some but not all? Has he made any statements on this? Yes. He has. Thanks to Obama, he’s now in even a **worse** position to negotiate with his government. It is not like he’s the King of Israel or something. He has to exercise diplomacy with his Cabinet, the PA, the U.S., and probably his own (probably very dejected right now) religious convictions. Funny how you hurl all the criticism at him when Abbas refused to negotiate during the settlement _freeze._ :rolleyes: You seem hellbent on making it all Israel’s fault - no matter who is in charge. On the issue of borders: Israel also houses thousands of illegal immigrants. They are refugees (mostly African) that come in through Egypt. Egypt and Israel have pretty unsecured borders, and with the regime change in Egypt, that could spell trouble. Defensible borders are a legitimate concern right now. But so is the immediate need for two states. Hopefully the New Palestine will finally be held accountable. Terrorism will no longer be terrorism but acts of war. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/255 "2011-05-21T19:40:28Z")
> [@Ograbme](#): > > It is literally impossible to read the assertion that the pre-67 borders are “indefensible” and not laugh a little bit. > > Cool, good to know I can keep this TV I stole. :dubious: I’m keeping my house in Denver, whether Mexico likes it or not. _Stealing_ implies that Israel invaded another sovereign territory like Germany did with Poland or some such. That isn’t the case. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/256 "2011-05-21T19:43:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > BTW, do we have any Palestinian Dopers? > > And, do we have any Palestinian Dopers who live in the OTs? (Must be hard to find a good Internet connection there . . .) Any good Palestinian Dopers you find are ones that probably never lived there, though some do have the internet…hmm…you can probably head over to electronic intafada. My friend is ‘Palestinian’, but he usually refers himself as _Jordanian_ unless we’re talking about Israel, and then he switches in jest ;). His parents live in Saudi Arabia. His father is (was?) Palestinian. His mother was an Egyptian living in Jordan when they met. I think if it had not been for our parents, we would have dated a little longer. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/257 "2011-05-21T19:57:41Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Any good Palestinian Dopers you find are ones that probably never lived there, though some do have the internet…hmm…you can probably head over to electronic intafada. > > My friend is ‘Palestinian’, but he usually refers himself as _Jordanian_ unless we’re talking about Israel, and then he switches in jest ;). His parents live in Saudi Arabia. His father is (was?) Palestinian. His mother was an Egyptian living in Jordan when they met. > > I think if it had not been for our parents, we would have dated a little longer. It seems like the Arabic-speaking world is becoming an international community, like the European Union, where the young people all speak English as a second language and identify themselves as “European” in addition to “German” or whatever (but for Arabic-speakers there’s no language barrier at all to cross). I wonder if the Arab League will ever achieve the same degree of political integration as the EU. That would be exactly what Osama bin Laden wanted to achieve, kindasorta, except that it (presumably) wouldn’t be a Caliphate and (presumably) wouldn’t be pan-Islamic (Turkey and Iran and Islamic countries east and north would remain outside it). ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/258 "2011-05-21T20:29:22Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Some are outposts. I very small quantity are outposts. The map shows outposts as tan but I am looking at purple rain here. If you’d like to dispute the map as a source, do that, but don’t tell me you see different colors. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > The military presence helps secure them (I believe you call it occupation) though they aren’t immune to rockets. That’s the point: withdrawing from WB means disbanding those settlements. I never objected to that and it doesn’t look like Netanyahu will either. It was easy for him to criticize Sharon when it was politically expedient. Now he’s in the same position. Defence is so clearly not the goal, that is a map of subjugation. What Netanyahu calls, “demographic changes that have taken place over the past 44 years”. Those changes took place because Israel never did respect the '67 borders, the Palestinians justifiably don’t believe they ever will. Perhaps Hamas has called for the destruction of Israel, but Israel is certainly methodically pursuing a course of destroying Palestine one foot at a time. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > I can’t help you if you don’t understand the difference between _literal_ armistice line and _around_ the line. Ok. Build a fence on your neighbors property and tell him the same thing. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > It was war. They won. It’s not odd to think they’re going to call some of the shots. The ‘Might Makes Right’ canard, I won’t waste my time illustrating how offal that premise is. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/259 "2011-05-21T20:48:12Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I very small quantity are outposts. The map shows outposts as tan but I am looking at purple rain here. If you’d like to dispute the map as a source, do that, but don’t tell me you see different colors. I don’t see different colors. In the map you provided, the legend inside the smaller map says that dark purple = Israeli settlement, outpost, or military base. The large map says differently. My point was: The settlements are ‘protected’ _because_ of military force. That’s what you call the occupation. That’s not a dispute. I don’t know why you are _trying_ to argue with me. I was fine with giving up that shit years ago…pretty much since I was old enough to pay attention. But I also understand why many were settled (or re-settled) in the first place. > [@](#): > > Defence is so clearly not the goal, that is a map of subjugation. I didn’t say that map was one of defense. I pointed out the military installations that defend the settlements & patrol the area (and, lets face it, does the policing that the PA doesn’t do). It’s disputed whether the West Bank was ever intended to be captured or kept. Certainly not for this long. The military presence effectively keeps the PA from becoming a military force. The U.S. occupied Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, Japan, etc. after wars. It’s part of the post-war process. It turned into something else. > [@](#): > > What Netanyahu calls, “demographic changes that have taken place over the past 44 years”. Yes. And it’s silly to think that those changes aren’t going to be taken into consideration. The people who want those far-out settlements to stay aren’t the majority of Israeli society. Netanyahu will have to choose now, since he’s been privy to political posturing with his own far-right coalition. > [@](#): > > Those changes took place because Israel never did respect the '67 borders, There’s an armistice line and a border. Not the same thing. All of the post-Ottoman Israeli, Syrian, Egyptian, and Jordanian borders in the area have been based on war. A _border_ is something that Gaza and Israel have, or Egypt and Israel. The West Bank used to be Jordan. 😕 > [@](#): > > the Palestinians justifiably don’t believe they ever will. I agree, but they aren’t taught to think of a two-state solution, either. > [@](#): > > Perhaps Hamas has called for the destruction of Israel, but Israel is certainly methodically pursuing a course of destroying Palestine one foot at a time. Making it weak? Definitely. Destroying it? That doesn’t make a lot of sense, considering that Israel could’ve done that already. It’s been 40 years. I know Jews supposedly got lost in the desert and such, but we can’t be that bad when it comes to direction. > [@](#): > > Ok. Build a fence on your neighbors property and tell him the same thing. Except Palestine has _never_ been a sovereign nation. Ever. > [@](#): > > The ‘Might Makes Right’ canard, I won’t waste my time illustrating how offal that premise is. No, but might does equal power. If that weren’t the case, the U.S. wouldn’t be called a _superpower_. Cut the rhetorical bullshit. If you want to have a serious discussion about history, politics, or foreign relations, that’s fine. But this propagandist shit that constantly seeks to demonize Israel isn’t worth my time. It’s petty. eta: You’re looking at this from the wrong perspective. [Topography](http://www.defensibleborders.org/images/map7.jpg) is an issue. The settlers have already proved what you can do with supposedly desolate land. There _is_ a viable state there. It needs work. The concern re: Jordan is legitimate, though it may just be something that Israel has to monitor. (Again, harder to do without use of airspace and allies in the region.) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/260 "2011-05-21T20:52:44Z")
double post, sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=14)