# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/261 "2011-05-21T21:31:58Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I don’t see different colors. In the map you provided, the legend inside the smaller map says that dark purple = Israeli settlement, outpost, or military base. No, it does not. I don’t believe you are unable to read a legend. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > My point was: The settlements are ‘protected’ _because_ of military force. That’s what you call the occupation. That’s not a dispute. I don’t know why you are _trying_ to argue with me. I was fine with giving up that shit years ago…pretty much since I was old enough to pay attention. > > But I also understand why many were settled (or re-settled) in the first place. There would be no need to protect Israeli civilians if they weren’t there in the first place. No nation in the history of the world has used women and children as an occupying force, they are roots used to make nations larger. So ok, I’ll bite. WHY do you think those areas needed to be re-settled by Israeli’s in the first place? > [@CitizenPained](#): > > The U.S. occupied Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, Japan, etc. after wars. It’s part of the post-war process. It turned into something else. If we were talking about military bases in WB and not suburbs you’d have a point. However that is not the case, so you do not. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > There’s an armistice line and a border. Not the same thing. All of the post-Ottoman Israeli, Syrian, Egyptian, and Jordanian borders in the area have been based on war. > > A _border_ is something that Gaza and Israel have, or Egypt and Israel. So you’re saying the West Bank is in Israel? > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Making it weak? Definitely. Destroying it? That doesn’t make a lot of sense, considering that Israel could’ve done that already. It’s been 40 years. I know Jews supposedly got lost in the desert and such, but we can’t be that bad when it comes to direction. Genocide is bad press, as the Jews are well aware. But for a long term strategy using natural growth to justify settlement expansion is a winner. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Cut the rhetorical bullshit. If you want to have a serious discussion about history, politics, or foreign relations, that’s fine. But this propagandist shit that constantly seeks to demonize Israel isn’t worth my time. It’s petty. This started because I pointed out the absurdity of Netanyahu’s statements when compared with reality. The propaganda has come from you. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > The concern re: Jordan is legitimate, though it may just be something that Israel has to monitor. (Again, harder to do without use of airspace and allies in the region.) Well then, Israel better start constructing settlements there STAT. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/262 "2011-05-21T21:48:53Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > No, it does not. I don’t believe you are unable to read a legend. Okay, we need a third party in here. Inside the smaller map there is a legend that says so. If I am wrong I will apologize for my error. > [@](#): > > There would be no need to protect Israeli civilians if they weren’t there in the first place. If the settlements weren’t there, there would be no need to protect them. I agree. It does not mean violence would have ceased in 1967. > [@](#): > > No nation in the history of the world has used women and children as an occupying force, they are roots used to make nations larger. I’m sorry - have you not read of the history of America? Mexico? Peru?! Spain?! > [@](#): > > So ok, I’ll bite. WHY do you think those areas needed to be re-settled by Israeli’s in the first place? Some of them existed before 48. That’s what I meant by re-settled. As in, they have already been resettled, not _they will be resettled in the future_. [Here’s an example.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalya) Arguably, the most beneficial infrastructure in the WB has been built by Israel. Not saying it is right, but the Palestinians haven’t built much. And it is not for lack of funds. It is their leadership (Jordan, Arfat, and now Abbas). The infrastructure in Gaza that Palestinians enjoyed is thanks to Egypt. It’s kind of a shithole now. > [@](#): > > If we were talking about military bases in WB and not suburbs you’d have a point. However that is not the case, so you do not. I’m not sure what you think my point is? > [@](#): > > So you’re saying the West Bank is in Israel? I have NEVER said so. In fact, I have repeatedly pointed out that it is _not_ in Israel when people make the claim that Israel does not take care of Palestinians…look at the the thread. > [@](#): > > Genocide is bad press, as the Jews are well aware. But for a long term strategy using natural growth to justify settlement expansion is a winner. ? I don’t even know what you are talking about or what specifically you are referring to. > [@](#): > > This started because I pointed out the absurdity of Netanyahu’s statements when compared with reality. The propaganda has come from you. No, the propaganda has not come from me. Netanyahu’s comments are reflective of reality. I never thought I’d say this about the jerk, but more so than Obama’s. He’s right. This stuff _has_ to be taken in consideration. You can’t just draw a little line down a map and yell, PRESTO! > [@](#): > > Well then, Israel better start constructing settlements there STAT. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/263 "2011-05-21T22:39:07Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Okay, we need a third party in here. Inside the smaller map there is a legend that says so. If I am wrong I will apologize for my error. Playing dumb is not working, perhaps you should try a different tactic. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > If the settlements weren’t there, there would be no need to protect them. I agree. It does not mean violence would have ceased in 1967. That also does not mean Israel had a right to build beyond that border. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > I’m sorry - have you not read of the history of America? Mexico? Peru?! Spain?! Oh yeah, they conquered, built and assimilated foreign cultures. Which was precisely the goal and precisely my point. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Arguably, the most beneficial infrastructure in the WB has been built by Israel. Not saying it is right, but the Palestinians haven’t built much. And it is not for lack of funds. It is their leadership (Jordan, Arfat, and now Abbas). The infrastructure in Gaza that Palestinians enjoyed is thanks to Egypt. It’s kind of a shithole now. Irrelevant. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > I’m not sure what you think my point is? Oh I know your point. The WB is currently for Israel what Germany and Japan are for the United States. But you are wrong on every level. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > I have NEVER said so. In fact, I have repeatedly pointed out that it is _not_ in Israel when people make the claim that Israel does not take care of Palestinians…look at the the thread. Ok. When you wrote, “A border is something that Gaza and Israel have, or Egypt and Israel.” you notably left out the WB. I’m sure the Koreans agree Armistice Lines are the same as borders but you do not. So in your opinion then what is the status of WB? > [@CitizenPained](#): > > I don’t even know what you are talking about or what specifically you are referring to. Again, playing dumb is not working for you. I cannot make that sentence any clearer. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > He’s right. This stuff _has_ to be taken in consideration. You can’t just draw a little line down a map and yell, PRESTO! This stuff has to be taken into consideration when it’s Israeli’s, but can be ignored when it’s Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/264 "2011-05-21T22:41:27Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > There would be no need to protect Israeli civilians if they weren’t there in the first place. No nation in the history of the world has used women and children as an occupying force, they are roots used to make nations larger. > > . What they are is looters. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/265 "2011-05-21T22:42:46Z")
Looters imply that they took items from the West Bank that was of value. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/266 "2011-05-21T22:53:41Z")
Let’s see what happens if the PA pushes for recognition without Israel. War? And what happens to the [3,000 U.S.-trained Palestinians](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/12/09/a_palestinian_state_means_war?wpisrc=obinsite) in the West Bank? :dubious: It’s not like the citizens of Ariel are just going to get up and leave. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/267 "2011-05-21T22:55:26Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > _Stealing_ implies that Israel invaded another sovereign territory like Germany did with Poland or some such. That isn’t the case. Really? > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Looters imply that they took items from the West Bank that was of value. Dihydrogen monoxide. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/268 "2011-05-21T22:56:49Z")
> [@Ograbme](#): > > Really? > > Dihydrogen monoxide. It was not the case. Are you trying to argue that there was a sovereign nation called Palestine ?! _Seriously_? ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/269 "2011-05-21T22:59:53Z")
Please tell me the means Israel used to gain control of the WB. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/270 "2011-05-21T23:01:24Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It was not the case. Are you trying to argue that there was a sovereign nation called Palestine ?! > > _Seriously_? Irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/271 "2011-05-21T23:02:39Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Irrelevant. How is that irrelevant? You’re spreading myth and bad history with that rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/272 "2011-05-21T23:04:26Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Some of them existed before 48. That’s what I meant by re-settled. As in, they have already been resettled, not _they will be resettled in the future_ This is another thing I see in Israel threads a lot, something is put forward that whilst not untrue, it’s made to appear much more relevant than it actually is. It would be much more accuratet o say “A tiny amount of them existed before 1948”, because the actual number and size of those that did exist before 1948 makes them almost insignifcant to a discussion on Israel’s settlement policy. I would course point out that Arabs pushed out by Jewish miltias in 1948 have not been allowed to return to their homes and this includes Arab Israeli citizens displaced within what is now Israel (their properties where confiscated on the basis that they were ‘absentee landlords’, though, under the martial law which was used to govern Israel’s Arabs for the first years of the state, they could be shot for trying to return to their homes). ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/273 "2011-05-21T23:08:39Z")
Hrrm yes let’s listen to the guy saying that Israel’s seizure of the WB wasn’t an invasion when he lectures us about spreading myths and bad history. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/274 "2011-05-21T23:15:46Z")
> [@Ograbme](#): > > Please tell me the means Israel used to gain control of the WB. Easy. Jordan was shelling Jerusalem and parts of Tel Aviv (the West Bank was part of Jordan) even though Israel asked it to not get involved in the war. That’s what Netanyahu is partially talking about when he said\* indefensible borders\*. So when troops went to recapture the Old City (re: East Jerusalem) and somehow actually…won…they heard that Jordanian troops had withdrawn from the WB as well. They went for it. From all military and government documents of the era, it has yet to be proved that Israel was intending on keeping it. No one wanted it. The purpose of Israel was a Jewish homeland. Like I said. \* It turned into something it wasn’t supposed to\*. The PLO wasn’t recognized. It was Jordan, Israel, and Egypt that entered talks. You know? The sovereign nations with functioning governments, infrastructure, economies, and military? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/275 "2011-05-21T23:21:18Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > How is that irrelevant? > > You’re spreading myth and bad history with that rhetoric. I dared anyone to defend Netanyahu’s statement. You took up the gauntlet. I expected you to argue in good faith. Apparently that was too much to ask. I have better things to do with my time. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/276 "2011-05-21T23:23:18Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Easy. Jordan was shelling Jerusalem and parts of Tel Aviv (the West Bank was part of Jordan) even though Israel asked it to not get involved in the war. That’s what Netanyahu is partially talking about when he said\* indefensible borders\*. So when **troops went to recapture the Old City (re: East Jerusalem) and somehow actually…won…they heard that Jordanian troops had withdrawn from the WB as well. They went for it.** > … > It was Jordan, Israel, and Egypt that entered talks. You know? The **sovereign nations** with functioning governments, infrastructure, economies, and military? > [@CitizenPained](#): > > : > _Stealing_ implies that Israel invaded another **sovereign territory** …That isn’t the case. Make up you mind! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/277 "2011-05-22T00:04:08Z")
> [@Ograbme](#): > > Hrrm yes let’s listen to the guy saying that Israel’s seizure of the WB wasn’t an invasion when he lectures us about spreading myths and bad history. You’d have to really dramatically redefine the term invasion from the way it’s usually understood to claim that Israel took control of the West Bank via invasion. While WWII ended with Soviet troops on German soil we generally don’t refer to the Soviets “invading” Germany in WWII. Jordan attacked and invaded Israel and their attack was repulsed. Nations that launch aggressive wars lose territory with pretty dramatic regularity. You’ll notice that the borders of Europe have changed dramatically on multiple occasions in the 20th Century and most of the countries who lost territory lost territory vastly larger than the West Bank. People should remember that the whole West Bank, including East Jerusalem is only about a third the size of Connecticut. > [@](#): > > Make up you mind! I know you’re trying to insult CP, but your merely made yourself look extremely ignorant and petty. Perhaps I’m wrong though and you complain about why we don’t talk about the Soviet “invasion” of Germany during WWII. For your sake I hope you do because otherwise you’re a massive hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/278 "2011-05-22T00:06:34Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Okay, we need a third party in here. Inside the smaller map there is a legend that says so. If I am wrong I will apologize for my error. You are both right but you are more illogically right. The smaller map is a summary of Israeli enforced restrictions on Palestinian movement. **Sitnam** ’s point was clearly concerning the settlements which are specifically addressed by the larger map (it really grabs your attention first thing and that is why I say you are illogically right). The larger map clearly differentiates between types of Israeli settlements and military facilities. It supports his point. The map says nothing about what an outpost (lavender) specifically is. The settlements sure look like they have divided up the West Bank and if they are all defensible (which they are via peaceful relations with the PA and awesome firepower and training) then the 67 armistice line (or border since they have the same function) is defensible. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/279 "2011-05-22T00:21:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Eh? Seems to me that disbanding the settlements is **exactly** what Netanyahu objects to. Or, is he willing to disband some but not all? Has he made any statements on this? > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Yes. He has. Details, please? Which settlements is he willing to give up? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/280 "2011-05-22T00:23:36Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Easy. Jordan was shelling Jerusalem and parts of Tel Aviv (the West Bank was part of Jordan) even though Israel asked it to not get involved in the war. That’s what Netanyahu is partially talking about when he said\* indefensible borders\*. Hardly a fair standard. **No** border is going to be defensible if we define that as “enemies can’t shell Israeli territory from the other side.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=15)