# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/321 "2011-05-24T05:07:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Apologies. > > What makes you think such a hypothetical state is more plausible than a hypothetical united Pakistan and India? > > Are the Indians and the Pakistanis immature because they don’t want a “one-state solution” to their conflict? Their current borders are the result of a negotiation between the muslims and the Hindus in the region. The borders in Israel are not. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/322 "2011-05-24T05:08:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That’s not a very good analogy at all, first because you are also conflating race and religion and secondly because the black people in this case intentionally built their nation where it is. They got to pick their neighbors and this is who they picked. The point I was trying to make was that Israel’s objection to being overrun by Palestinians is not based on their race, but on their ideology. There are plenty of Arabs living in Israel that Israel has no problem with. The problem lies with the Arabs who voted Hamas into power. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/323 "2011-05-24T05:54:12Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > It’s too bad for Israel then that Obama is against the 1967 borders with mutually agreed upon land swaps. > > Maybe if they talked to him they’d get him to change his mind. You’re joking, right? Because that’s exactly what he laid down. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/324 "2011-05-24T11:19:22Z")
Was anyone else surprised how well the Israeli Prime Minister spoke English? Holy shit. Here, I was expecting a Hebrew-speaking PM with an English translator. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/325 "2011-05-24T12:28:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Their current borders are the result of a negotiation between the muslims and the Hindus in the region. The borders in Israel are not. That’s completely irrelevant to the question I posed. Also, the Kashmir district is hardly a settled question. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/326 "2011-05-24T12:30:37Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Was anyone else surprised how well the Israeli Prime Minister spoke English? Holy shit. Here, I was expecting a Hebrew-speaking PM with an English translator. Well, he grew up in the US and went to high school in the US as well. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/327 "2011-05-24T13:10:30Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You’re joking, right? Because that’s exactly what he laid down. Yes, and you said that’s what the Israelis wanted too. So it’s confusing why they’re so upset about Obama’s speach, since all he did was say the obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/328 "2011-05-24T13:43:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, he grew up in the US and went to high school in the US as well. He was also the Israeli Ambassador to the UN. In fact, that’s what made his career - he served during the First Gulf War in 1991, and his television appearances back then were so impressive that he basically catapulted himself into his party’s leadership a couple of years later (of course, the fact that his father is one of the Likud’s leading intellectuals and that his late brother was one of Israel’s most famous war heroes helped a lot, too). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/329 "2011-05-24T14:13:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It wasn’t a debate tactic, just idle curiosity. He is an Israel apologist who claims to be an Israel critic (after all he thought that Balfour was a mistake). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/330 "2011-05-24T14:22:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Old Jewish joke: > > Golda picked up a broken fork at the flea market. “How much?” > > “A penny,” answered Smulowitz. > > “A penny!” she grumbled. “Too much!” > > “So make me an offer.” > > Netanyahu says the 1967 Green Line is an “indefensible” border between Israel and Palestine. What border would be defensible, Bennie? Draw us a line on the map and we’ll go from there. There may be no line that Netenyahu would be willing to draw that Palestinians (or anyone else) would be willing to accept. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/331 "2011-05-24T14:34:37Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Huh? You really buy the “Palestinians have been here millenia” crap? Huh? Can you explain why you think its “Palestinians have been here for millenia” is crap? > [@](#): > > You don’t think it’s a little weird that the U.S. attempted to subject a unilateral force onto two other countries? Force? What force? The force of words? Diplomatic force? > [@](#): > > Strict adherence to, yes. People have always talked about borders BASED ON the pre-1967 borders. > [@](#): > > It isn’t that Obama’s idea can’t mesh with Bibi’s… It’s the way he went about it. He told Israel to start at 1967. It sounds like petty semantics, but it isn’t. Is it the “told” part or the "1967 part that you have trouble with because we “tell” people stuff all the time and they generally don’t seem to give a shit. > [@](#): > > I think the question of Right of Return will be a bigger explosion. I don’t know for sure what Obama’s position is on the right of return but I’m pretty sure he supports Israel on this one. He might call for some sort of compensation but I don’t think he will call for the right of return. > [@](#): > > They do have more cards, so it’s ridiculous to expect Israel to go to back to the strict 1967 armistice line. Re: Defensible borders: I’m sure you’ll get that map proposal soon. 😉 The Allies had more cards after WWI and they forced the Central Powers to sign the Treaty of Versailles and broke up the Ottoman Empire and that led to WWII. If the Allies had waved their cards in the face of the Axis in 1945, do you think we would be better off or worse? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/332 "2011-05-24T14:40:12Z")
[quote=“CitizenPained, post:238, topic:582500”] [li]Demilitarized Palestine[/li][/quote] This is a non-starter. Even Finn agrees that Palestine must be a sovereign power with its own military. > [@](#): > > I also said that Jerusalem and holy places should be overseen by an international body, but we know that hasn’t worked. :o I’mm telling ya. Give Jerusalem to the Buddhists, or the Scientologists. > [@](#): > > So at this point, honestly, if Jerusalem is being controlled by Israel after a war that she rightfully won, I think it’s silly - actually - it will never happen, so - it’s downright stupid to think that Israel will give it up. And we will never have peace if Israel stands on the spoils of war theory. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/333 "2011-05-24T15:02:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The Allies had more cards after WWI and they forced the Central Powers to sign the Treaty of Versailles and broke up the Ottoman Empire and that led to WWII. If the Allies had waved their cards in the face of the Axis in 1945, do you think we would be better off or worse? I don’t understand your point. After WW2, Germany was treated much, _much_ more harshly than after WW1 - it was divided into zones of occupation for one, and half of it remained, forcibly, a Soviet client state for the next fifty odd years; not to mention that the historic borders of Germany were pushed westwards considerably, where they remain to this day; and millions of Germans were forcibly displaced and ejected in the doing. > **[Germany | East and West Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#East_and_West_Germany)** > > After the surrender of Nazi Germany, the Allies de jure abolished the German state and partitioned Berlin and Germany's remaining territory into four occupation zones. The western sectors, controlled by France, the United Kingdom, and the United States, were merged on 23 May 1949 to form the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG) (German: Bundesrepublik Deutschland); on 7 October 1949, the Soviet Zone became the German Democratic Republic (GDR) (Deutsche Demokratische Republik; DDR). They were informa... Note the shift westwards of Poland: > **[Oder–Neisse line](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder-Neisse_line)** > > Oder–Neisse line (German: Oder-Neiße-Grenze, Polish: granica na Odrze i Nysie Łużyckiej) is an unofficial term for the modern border between Germany and Poland. The line generally follows the Oder and Lusatian Neisse rivers, meeting the Baltic Sea in the north. A small portion of Polish territory does fall west of the line, including the cities of Szczecin and Świnoujście (German: Stettin and Swinemünde). > In post-war Poland the government described the Oder–Neisse line as the result of tough n... The expulsion of millions of Germans, as a result of WW2: > **[Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II)** > > During the later stages of World War II and the post-war period, Reichsdeutsche (German citizens) and Volksdeutsche (ethnic Germans living outside the Nazi state) fled and were expelled from various Eastern and Central European countries, including Czechoslovakia, and from the former German provinces of Lower and Upper Silesia, East Prussia, and the eastern parts of Brandenburg (Neumark) and Pomerania (Farther Pomerania), which were annexed by Provisional Government of National Unity of Poland ... What is the appetite for moving Poland back east where it started? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/334 "2011-05-24T15:06:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’mm telling ya. Give Jerusalem to the Buddhists, or the Scientologists. No, no, no. **Nuke** Jerusalem. Evacuate everybody, give them each a couple hundred shekels for the trouble, and hit it with bombs so dirty nobody can approach the site without protective gear for a thousand years. In the interest of world peace and quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/335 "2011-05-24T15:36:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’d have to really dramatically redefine the term invasion from the way it’s usually understood to claim that Israel took control of the West Bank via invasion. > > While WWII ended with Soviet troops on German soil we generally don’t refer to the Soviets “invading” Germany in WWII. > > Jordan attacked and invaded Israel and their attack was repulsed. Nations that launch aggressive wars lose territory with pretty dramatic regularity. > **[Six-Day War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#Background_and_summary_of_events_leading_to_war)** > > Israel occupies a total of 70,000 km2 (27,000 sq mi) of territory: > Egypt:9,800–15,000 killed or missing4,338 capturedSyria:1,000–2,500 killed367–591 capturedJordan:696–700 killed2,500 wounded533 capturedLebanon:1 aircraft lost > **[Six-Day War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#Preemptive_strike_v._unjustified_attack)** > > Israel occupies a total of 70,000 km2 (27,000 sq mi) of territory: > Egypt:9,800–15,000 killed or missing4,338 capturedSyria:1,000–2,500 killed367–591 capturedJordan:696–700 killed2,500 wounded533 capturedLebanon:1 aircraft lost > **[Six-Day War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#Preliminary_air_attack)** > > Israel occupies a total of 70,000 km2 (27,000 sq mi) of territory: > Egypt:9,800–15,000 killed or missing4,338 capturedSyria:1,000–2,500 killed367–591 capturedJordan:696–700 killed2,500 wounded533 capturedLebanon:1 aircraft lost You really think that is an apt analogy? I don’t think that Israel is obligated to get bloodied before it does anything but this is hardly like the soviets pushing back German aggression back into their own borders, is it? But you profess expertise in these matters so I await your corrections. > [@](#): > > You’ll notice that the borders of Europe have changed dramatically on multiple occasions in the 20th Century and most of the countries who lost territory lost territory vastly larger than the West Bank. Other than the break up of the soviet block, what dramatic changes have occurred in Europe? > [@](#): > > People should remember that the whole West Bank, including East Jerusalem is only about a third the size of Connecticut. You’re right, that makes it OK. > [@](#): > > I know you’re trying to insult CP, but your merely made yourself look extremely ignorant and petty. I think he did a pretty good job of hanging CP with his own words. Sorry you didn’t like the result. But as a critic of Israel I suppose you are just trying to be even handed in your approach. > [@](#): > > Perhaps I’m wrong though and you complain about why we don’t talk about the Soviet “invasion” of Germany during WWII. For your sake I hope you do because otherwise you’re a massive hypocrite. You like to call people massive hypocrites a lot by applying inapt analogies, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/336 "2011-05-24T15:41:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Other than the break up of the soviet block, what dramatic changes have occurred in Europe? Ouch. There are too many to name … but I’ll direct your attention to my post, two above yours, for a single significant example: the westward movement of the border of Germany (really, the westwards migration of Poland as a whole). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/337 "2011-05-24T15:54:01Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > The point I was trying to make was that Israel’s objection to being overrun by Palestinians is not based on their race, but on their ideology. > > There are plenty of Arabs living in Israel that Israel has no problem with. The problem lies with the Arabs who voted Hamas into power. I agree that the precipitating factor behind what is going on is rooted in security concerns just like the sentiment from the palestinian side is rooted in non-race based concerns, but over the course4 of 60 years, it has become personal and racist. There are certainly Palestinians who have become antisemetic but they didn’t start out that way, not to this extent. The suggestion that Israeli Jews might be racist meets with excuses and objections while the Pal;estinian hatred is portrayed as being little more than racism, as if there was no actual greivance underlying all the hatred. Voting for Hamas is a bit like voting in Republicans because the Democrats haven’t cleaned up the Republican mess quickly enough (that and Fatah was supposed to be pretty corrupt). I don’t believe that the majority of Palestinians are ready to take up arms against Israel but if the arab spring results in a belligerent Egypt and a Syria that needs to distract its population, then other countries like Jordan and Iraq might just join in and Palestinians decide that 60 years of injustice is enough. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/338 "2011-05-24T15:56:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s completely irrelevant to the question I posed. Also, the Kashmir district is hardly a settled question. Of course its relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/339 "2011-05-24T16:00:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t understand your point. After WW2, Germany was treated much, _much_ more harshly than after WW1 - it was divided into zones of occupation for one, and half of it remained, forcibly, a Soviet client state for the next fifty odd years; not to mention that the historic borders of Germany were pushed westwards considerably, where they remain to this day; and millions of Germans were forcibly displaced and ejected in the doing. > > [Germany - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#East_and_West_Germany) > > Note the shift westwards of Poland: > > [Oder–Neisse line - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder-Neisse_line) > > The expulsion of millions of Germans, as a result of WW2: > > [Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II) > > What is the appetite for moving Poland back east where it started? Hrmm. Good points. I have reformed my thinking. I still think that a one sided resolution to this situation is neither desirable nor sustainable and Israel seems intent on a very one sided solution. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/340 "2011-05-24T16:02:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Ouch. > > There are too many to name … but I’ll direct your attention to my post, two above yours, for a single significant example: the westward movement of the border of Germany (really, the westwards migration of Poland as a whole). I meant after WWII [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=18)