# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/401 "2011-05-25T20:32:54Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Most of what you said is no different than what I said. I said military control and made no mention of police. I was referring to your “something similar to Indian reservations” comment. I disagree with the analogy. > [@](#): > > To give a clear prediction regarding the likely arrangement, an ever-increasing population of Palestinians will always view periodic retribution on the part of the Israeli military (retribution for whatever dominant terrorist group does to piss off Israel) as arbitrary and out of proportion. If they decide to rebel against these conditions they will not blame the various terrorist groups in their midst, they will blame Israel. I think if the frustration levels are high enough, and they are focused enough, then there really will not be much Israel, by itself, can do about it. > > So I guess I do think poor and numerous is more than enough against military force. Palestinians will regard Israeli military retribution as unjustified (or not) regardless of population. Nor do I see having a greater population is going to help them much against such retribution. There is little a large crowd of third-world civilians can do against retribution by a modern military force, who does not actually care to police them. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/402 "2011-05-26T05:37:50Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Can someone clarify what Obama means when he talks about the changing demographics of the Palestinians? This is something most people cite as a reason for Israel to negotiate for peace. > > Is the problem that there will soon be too many Palestinians for Israel to handle? I think this is very important, because everyone talks about refugees and such, but you are very much correct for a few reasons…hope you don’t mind my shpeal. 😃 If Palestinians don’t get their own state, it does become more of an Israeli problem. And an Egyptian problem, a Syrian problem, and Jordanian problem. And a UN problem. And my problem and your problem because it’s a U.S. problem. The U.S. is engaged in nearly every conflict in the world, either as brokers, financiers, supporters, or key players. Maybe not as much in 1948, but it is the case now. Israel doesn’t want to annex the West Bank - the only time this was considered was in 1948 with an idea that the yishuv could govern a whole area (which was not annexation) but it obviously wasn’t put forth since the Arab nations had already rejected that idea. (Had the Arab population in the area been okay with Jewish Palestine, oh how history would have been different.) Actually, Israel’s Declaration of Independence does not mention borders. If you read the books about the events leading up to the declaration, it will tell you that there was a discussion over this - do you include all of the Palestine Mandate, do you mention the UN suggested areas, what about Jerusalem [which was under siege by Jordan at this time], what about the West Bank kibbutzim that had been attacked, yada yada. There wasn’t even a consensus on a _name_ until the day or two before. So I think this idea - this idea that borders should be so easy, or that Israel is a 20th (–first?) century imperialist machine, or whatever, is just false. It’s missing context. The Palestinians (pre-Israel, everyone was called that - Jews too) were content to live under Arab rule - and later, the British (and French to the north). The Jewish community was the exception. There was semi-autonomous government in some places (Jerusalem is an example) but this was kind of an old land that most of the world ignored for the longest time. Borders weren’t very closed up until after WWI. Israel declared Independence right as the Mandate expired. I do not know of any legal document with official Israeli borders unless you count the Israeli ones. What we see on a map are armistice lines, territories, and where Israel meets another sovereign nation. The closest de-facto border with the West Bank besides some imaginary lines in the sand that Israel has is the fence - but that’s not complete and it’s under dispute. If you go from, say, Colorado to Wyoming on 1-25, there’s a sign that says WELCOME TO WYOMING! and that’s Wyoming’s official welcome to you but details are left to zoning commissions. If you visit the Statue of Liberty in New York, you’re kind of in New Jersey, too. It’s just that the U.S. is so big and established that we don’t think the way Israelis and Palestinians do. Israel is the size of like, Connecticut. So land matters. About sixty years ago, the concern was over farm-able land, so I guess it’s no surprise that Israel’s first university was centered around ag technology. There are Israeli settlements outside of the “Green Line” that used to be considered non arable but that’s not the case now! I said it earlier and I was criticized for this, but the only official borders Israel has are the ones with Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and now Gaza. And maybe Syria, but then you have the Golan Heights in question. Anyway. As far as the territories go, Gaza seems to be a done deal. (The area of the Gaza strip actually has a really cool history if you are bored someday.) Gaza was under Egyptian control after the 48 war and the West Bank & Jerusalem was under Jordanian control. But very few of these refugees were integrated into the societies of their respective countries. (Jordan has a sorry history with the West Bankers, bleh.) So as Israel is conducting its foreign policy after 1967/8, the only thing it has to go on is its own history and the knowledge that it really is surrounded by enemies. And so far its history has been this: people came, they settled, it was good, more people came, it got bad, it got worse, big war happened, another big war happened, got really worse, they declare independence after decades of waiting (since '22 or even '19) and go to war cause time is up and this shit is gonna go down. A big myth is that the U.S. just ‘gave’ Israel someone else’s land. Uhhhh no. How do you think Israel was able to stand up to all those invading armies? There was an official movement for a Jewish land in Palestine since 1917. Pre-state Israel already had an army! And an Air Force made up of ragtag old aircraft. The conflicts leading up to the war turned militias into a working military, and the 48 war shaped it. Some had fought in WWII, some had worked with the British (the British did not recognize a Jewish military but somehow they coordinated with it, whatever) and some were literally just farmers. But the movement for statehood was decades old and those early Zionists were not kidding. A second myth is that the Arab invasion of the area was a surprise. It had technically already started, and the U.S. asked the Jewish leaders to not declare independence as to avoid war. But it had been thirty years since the Balfour Declaration so they weren’t listening. 😃 (The idea that AIPAC dictates foreign policy or that the US and Israel have always been bffs is so laughable it is stunning. In 1981, Regan was threatening sanctions. Countries will always do what is in their own best interests.) There was a concerned effort to form a government, infrastructure, schools, etc., loooong before 1948. The Jewish State was pretty functional. The people you know as \*Palestinians \*today didn’t have that. And there was no coordinated movement for a “Palestinian” government as it was expected they would come under control of another Arab country. The people you see today that are refugees of the 1948 war are ones who were largely caught in a crossfire. 😕 So my point? My point is, the Jewish history of modern Israel was built on the kibbutzim, socialist ideals, Jewish sovereignty, the option of self-selected groups (there’s a town or kibbutz for every type) and western and Jewish law (which don’t conflict as much as you’d think). Jewish immigration equaled a new era. Arabs benefited, too. All of Palestine was open to whomever would come. (Think of early American homesteading…)\* Settlements\* are, well, the last frontier, I guess. Settlements were in the Sinai, in Gaza, in the Golan Heights, on the Jordan…there was no concept of PLO back then. And yeah, it was fueled by opposition. Teasing a baby with candy and all that. The early proposals for Jewish and Arab states were drawn around, yup, population centers (obviously those demographics have changed!) and it was expected that each group would respect religious minorities. The only _natives_ misplaced were the Bedouin, and for that I have an incredible amount of sympathy. ☹ The Arabs living in the area where from surrounding places, just like many Jews were from Europe. Some Arabs and some Jews had much longer pre-Mandate histories for sure. But everyone was kind of an ‘immigrant’ if you take a critical look at things. The demographics of Palestine have changed in many ways: What is a _Palestinian_ now is not the same as what it was in 48. Half of Jordan is technically Palestinian. 😉 But yes, the refugees - or the stateless ones - have increased quite a bit. High birth rates and such. They were under the mandate, then Jordan or Egypt, and since 67, under Israeli control because Israel controlled the territories. It’s kind of sad, actually. The Arab states had a vested interest in the area but when they backed off, the non-Israeli population suffered the most. The PLO was designed to take back the Mandate for Arabs - and it was backed by other Arab nations who were already quite sour with Israels '48 victory. Israel “inherited” the Palestinian problem from other Arabs…but by that time, it was already a target by the refugees. Anti-Zionism had been in play for decades, so it wasn’t entirely new. So: Not only did that population swell considerably and move around geographically (all of them have), but the Palestinian population is also very young. The young and poor populations tend to be the ones most likely to go to war, especially if they are a few generations removed from any degree of sovereignty. The Eretz Yisrael Zionists have to give it up. The time of the old kibbutz is over. Time to turn inward and take care of what you’ve built. But Netanyahu has a government to appeal to, an election, and his own legacy. Neither side will accept what the other offers. So…I donno. The West Bankers need a state. Unfortunately, the blame is on Israel instead of sharing it with Arab countries or Jordan, and Jordan is going to wash their hands of it because they miss their tribal-dominated demographics. Sometimes I wonder why Israel hasn’t been attacked (save terrorist groups) by any sovereign nations in so long. I guess I realized that inheriting the refugee problem isn’t worth it. They already _have_ a refugee problem and instead of integrating them into society, letting them work or whatnot, they restrict movement and point fingers at Israel. A disproportionate part of the blame is placed on Israel. I am **not** saying that Israel is faultless, but in a broader context, Israel has been a pawn in other people’s games. Israel’s shaky alliances with old enemies are crumbling. In a weird way, Israel acts as the scapegoat for the refugee problem while the refugees act as a buffer between Israel and old enemies. It’s like Hot Potato meets Foreign Policy and the biggest potato just landed in Netanyahu’s lap. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/403 "2011-05-26T15:46:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Ouch. > > There are too many to name … but I’ll direct your attention to my post, two above yours, for a single significant example: the westward movement of the border of Germany (really, the westwards migration of Poland as a whole). I meant post WWII but thinking about it further I suppose korea also had its border altered after the korean war and eritrea had its civil war with Ethiopia but these all seem different than what is going on in israel. So I guess we can stick with might makes right. We’ll see how long that works for Israel… BTW, have you seen that Egypt just opened its border with gaza? What happens if the arab spring results in a bunch of democratic states that want to pick a fight with Israel? Sure Israel can kick their collective butts right now but will this always be the case? What happens if pakistan gets involved? At some point Israel is not going to hold the upper hand. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/404 "2011-05-26T15:51:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I was referring to your “something similar to Indian reservations” comment. I disagree with the analogy. > > Palestinians will regard Israeli military retribution as unjustified (or not) regardless of population. > > Nor do I see having a greater population is going to help them much against such retribution. There is little a large crowd of third-world civilians can do against retribution by a modern military force, who does not actually care to police them. Really none of it sounds like an enviable future and it is too bad the current Israeli government is unable to see that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/405 "2011-05-26T15:59:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’ll be happy to make corrections for you if you want, but you haven’t told me what you think. You just claimed that it was an “inapt” analogy and then threw up some wikipedia links as if they meant something. > > Here is the truth, which can even be found your precious wikipedia. Jordan invaded Israel after the Israelis pleaded with them to stay out of the war. King Hussein confirms this in his own memoirs. > > This is something that is not disputed by anybody. Had King Hussein not invaded Jerusalem then the Israelis wouldn’t have taken East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Nobody denies this. A cite would be appreciated. Did Jordan have a treaty obligation that was triggered when Israel preemptively attacked Egypt? Like I said, my depth of knowledge is wikipedia deep so please enlighten me. What is the Jordanian side of the argument? Or is there really no merit to the arab side of this argument? > [@](#): > > Like I said, countries that invade other countries and get beaten back often lose territory. It’s what happens. As a critic of israel, I suppose you would be just as sanguine if Israel loses the next war in the middle east. > [@](#): > > Dude, I have to admit being shocked by this question, but I’ll give you just a few of the changes that occurred in the 20th Century. I meant after WWII. But I withdraw that line of reasoning, I think it has merit but its obviously not sancrosanct. > [@](#): > > As mentioned, countries who lose wars, particularly wars they launched aggressively lose territory You see, thats the thing. 1967 doesn’t seem to be a simple instance of arab aggression. It seems like Israel attacked first. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/406 "2011-05-26T16:21:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You waited three and a half days to take a cheap shot at another poster in a post that is so far out of context that it makes no sense in today’s exchanges? Dio posted"Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic Why do you love Israel so much anyway? I though you claimed to be a Muslim?" I was correcting Dio. > [@](#): > > I do not want to see any more quibbling from you about who has posted the more grievous personal remarks in this thread (or this forum). Where did I quibble about this in this thread? I quibbled about this in a previous thread because moderators seem to have a habit of tolerating personal remarks about me only to blow the whistle on both sides when I return snark for snark. I understand that the “he started it” defense (some would call it self defense) isn’t very satisfying but there you have it. Going forward, I will limit myself to just reporting (in vain) these personal attacks when i see them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/407 "2011-05-26T16:30:57Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I think the influence of the AIPAC lobby is overstated, kind of how the right likes to throw ‘unions’ at us. The U.S. acts in what it perceives to be the U.S.'s interests. What other PAC has annual conferences attended by the President, the Senate Majority Leader, the Speaker of the House and as many other senators and congressmen as it cares to invite? Maybe there are lots of them, can anyone elnlighten me? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/408 "2011-05-26T16:50:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > What he’s saying is so misleading as to be false. The negotiations didn’t go further than they did because of Arafat’s intransigence. From Dennis Ross’s interview with Brit Hume, April 21, 2002: > > [Mideast Dispatch Archive: Dennis Ross on the “Camp David myths” of the anti-Israel crowd](http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/000555.html) Dennis Ross is basically known as israel’s lawyer. One of the top AIPAC people said recently that if Ross had been one of Obama’s inner circle when Obama made the demand that Israel stop settlement building a while ago that “the silly demand would never have been made”. I’m phrasing from memory but basically Ross speaking to Fox news is about as far away from an objective source as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/409 "2011-05-26T16:57:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The article is an explaination of why Arafat turned obstuctionist. Although it sets out to attempt a more “nuanced picture” than that of all (objective) observers - that this was a case of Arafat, once again, missing an opportunity for peace - if read, it actually paints the opposite view: that to Arafat, nothing the Israelis could offer was a “concession” because the Palestinians were already making the greatest “concession” - to Israel’s existence. > > Again, to an unbiased observer, knowing the relative powers of the two entities involved, this simply isn’t a realistic position. > > The Israeli offer wasn’t concrete because they were fishing for some willingness, any willingness, on the part of Arafat to deal, in order to hash out the details - but they waited in vain. > > Arafat was the problem then. So are you saying that teh Israeli offer wasn’t really a sincere offer it was an attempt to get a Palestinian offer on the table, or to define the Palestinian offer? Meanwhile, Arafat viewed every inch of Israel as a concession? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/410 "2011-05-26T16:59:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The article is an explaination of why Arafat turned obstuctionist. Although it sets out to attempt a more “nuanced picture” than that of all (objective) observers - that this was a case of Arafat, once again, missing an opportunity for peace - if read, it actually paints the opposite view: that to Arafat, nothing the Israelis could offer was a “concession” because the Palestinians were already making the greatest “concession” - to Israel’s existence. > > Again, to an unbiased observer, knowing the relative powers of the two entities involved, this simply isn’t a realistic position. > > The Israeli offer wasn’t concrete because they were fishing for some willingness, any willingness, on the part of Arafat to deal, in order to hash out the details - but they waited in vain. > > Arafat was the problem then. As the years have gone over the Palestinians have taken any US peace initiatives less and less seriously, because they’re basically kabuki theatre to let the US and Israel look like they’re serious about making peace. Compare and contrast any Israeli “offer” with the Anglo-Irish peace agreement - Israel want to dictate who they’ll negotiate with. The Brits/Unionist sat down and negotiated in good faith with terroprists. Israel _won’t even suspend settlement building during negotiations_ while the Brits and the Unionists made huge concessions before even sitting down with the Republicans to show they were going to make a good faith attempt at peace. Any terrorist acts during the years-long negotiations didn’t have the Brits/Unionists shut them down, rather they doubled down and tried harder to make an agreement. the biggest terrorist atrocity of the entire 40 year modern-era Northern Ireland troubles didn’t stop the process. Looking at how israel are contiuing their illegal 40+ year occupation and _continuing to build illegally while claiming to want peace_ and comparing it to the Irish situation tells you everything you need to know about how serious the Israelis are about making peace. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/411 "2011-05-26T17:04:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You see, thats the thing. 1967 doesn’t seem to be a simple instance of arab aggression. It seems like Israel attacked first. Technically, they did. It was a preemptive attack. Here’s my brief timeline, starting in May (stuff happened in April, including cross border raids by Syria, and a dogfight between Syrian and Israeli planes): May 5: Palestinians shell Kibbutz Manara. May 11: In response to Israeli complaints, UN Sec. General U Thant condemns the attacks and calls for peace. The Security Council blocks the issue but any resolution is blocked by the Soviets. Israel asks the US for help, but is refused, informed that the US will “remain neutral” in the region. May 15: Israel Independence Day. Israel plans a military parade in West Jerusalem for that date, raising tensions in the neighboring countries. In recognition of this, Israel only sends troops into West Jerusalem for the parade, not tanks or artillery. Meanwhile, Anwar Sadat, at the time, president of Egypt’s National Assembly, visits Moscow, where he’s told, falsely by the Soviets, that Israel is planning to invade Syria the week of May 16th-22nd. Doctored reports are given as proof. Egypt declares a state of emergency and troops are sent to the border with Israel. May 16: Egypt asks the UN forces in the Gaza Strip and the Sinai, put there by the UN as a buffer between Egypt and Israel, to withdraw. May 17: The Egyptian air force conducts reconnaissance of the Israeli reactor at Dimona. Syria deploys forces in the Golan. Israel calls up 18,000 reserves and orders mines laid along the Egyptian border. May 18: The Commander of Egyptian Forces in the Sinai announces troops are ready and that they are looking forward to this “holy war”. May 19: Israel calls up 80,000 reserves, and asks the US, France, and the UK for help, but they all refuse. May 22: Egypt closes the Straits of Tiran to Israel. Jordan sends tanks to the border, Syria sends more troops into the Golan. May 23-26: US warns Israel not to take unilateral action, proposes a multinational escort of ships through Tiran. Israel takes US words under “consideration”, and seeks but fails to get a commitment by the US to defend Israel if attacked. General Rabin collapses from a combination of stress, lack of sleep, and too many cigarettes, and is given a two day leave of absence. His replacement, Ezer Weisman, prepares a more aggressive battle plan in the event of war. Meanwhile, in Egypt, General Amar comes up with a plan, Operation Dawn, to seize the Negev. Israel orders full mobilization. May 27-29: Eban returns to Jerusalem from Washington to attend an emergency cabinet meeting regarding the crisis, in which the option of a preemptive attack is considered. The cabinet decides not to attack, but to keep forces on alert. Meanwhile, Egypt asks the Soviets for support should war come. The Soviets urge caution and refuse to commit, warning the Egyptians not to make aggressive moves. Operation Dawn is called off, but the Egyptian ambassador to the Soviet Union assures Nasser that, should war come, the Soviet Union will support Egypt. Prime Minister Eshkol of Israel addresses the country in a radio address, and sounds confused and panicky. Israelis panic. May 30-June 4: Jordan signs a mutual defense pact with Egypt, letting the PLO back in Jordan and putting the Jordanian army under Egyptian control. Eshkol turns the position of Defense Minister to Moshe Dayan, and announces the formation of a unity government, bringing Begin in. Egyptian troops continue to enter Sinai. Jordan draws up plans, should war come, to surround Western Jerusalem. The Syrians also plan offensive operations. Morrocco, Libya, Saudi Arabia, and Tunisia send troops to the Sinai. The US sends signals that it is softening on an Israeli attack. The Arab states announce a ban on oil sales to countries that support Israel, and the Soviets send a fleet to the Eastern Med as “observers”. France announces a ban on weapon sales to Israel, and the US urges Israel to not make any preemptive strikes. On June 4, the Israeli Cabinet meets and decides to attack the next day. On June 5, the war begins. If you want any specific information on the lead up to war, let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/412 "2011-05-26T17:08:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > A cite would be appreciated. Did Jordan have a treaty obligation that was triggered when Israel preemptively attacked Egypt? Like I said, my depth of knowledge is wikipedia deep so please enlighten me. What is the Jordanian side of the argument? Or is there really no merit to the arab side of this argument? > > You see, thats the thing. 1967 doesn’t seem to be a simple instance of arab aggression. It seems like Israel attacked first. I recommend reading _Six Days of War_ by Michael Oren - it’s a very good, general history of that conflict. Written from the Israeli perspective (Oren was the Israeli ambassador to the US), but highly praised as factual. The Six-Day War was, in essence, Nassar’s folly. The setting for the war was the establishment of a UN peacekeeping force, the UNEF, between the Egyptians and Israelis. As a result of a series of miscalculations and miscommunications in which the Soviets played a malign and mysterious role (they falsely warned Nassar that the Israelis were massing on the Syrian border), and taunts from the Jordainians that Nassar was “hiding behind UNEF’s skirts”, Nassar embarked on a series of measures that were obvously angling for war, as far as the Israelis were concerned: 1. First, he ordered the UNEF to leave - and they did. 2. Second, he moved his army into the Sinai, to replace the UNEF. 3. Third, he closed the Straights of Tiran to Israeli shipping - in the face of an Israeli statement that closing the Straights was an act of war. 4. Fourth, after this, Egypt and Jordan signed a defence pact (that was on May 30). 5. On June 6, Israel attacked with its preemptive strike. In answer to your specific questions - yes, Jordan had an obligation to coordinate its military plans with Egypt, but they entered into that obligation literally a few days before the war, and certainly they could (and would) have ignored it, if they had been aware of the true situation (Nassar was lying to them up the yin-yang to get them to commit). Second, it is true that Israel fired the first shots in the war, but the blame clearly lies with Nasser (and the Soviets, who had lied up the yin-yang to _him_) - with a side-helping of blame for the UN, for cowardly withdrawing its force, and the Israelis, for taking Nassar’s bluster seriously (though they could hardly do otherwise). Nasser could have easily avoided the war, had he wanted to, by the simple expedient of not ordering the UNEF to leave. According to Oren, Nasser did not actually want things to go as far as they did - for one, part of his army was still busy in Yemen, so he wasn’t in fact ready for an all-out war - but he was trapped my the momentum of events he had himself set in train: for example, he had (allegedly) ordered the UNEF to leave, hoping and expecting them to ignore him - so that he could score points with his fellow Arab leaders and the Arab “street”; when they actually left, he was as surprised and shocked as the Israelis, but with this difference - the Israelis assumed this was all part of his drum-roll towards war. Closing thge straights was his final, irrevocable mistake - the Israelis had flat-out _told_ him that doing so would mean war. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/413 "2011-05-26T17:10:20Z")
Well this seems to contradict the notion that Jordan invaded israel. It seems to contradict portrayals of israel being the victims of invasion. Israel attacked Egypt and egypt retaliated with its treaty partners. Like I said, I don’t think israel has to wait until its nose is bloodied before it strikes but the analogy has been Russia taking land in Germany after Germany invaded it. The analogy seems to gloss over some galring differences between the two situations. If the rationale is Israel is doing it because it has the muscle to do so, then fine but that doesn’t seem to be a formula for a lasting peace of regional prostperity. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/414 "2011-05-26T17:14:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well this seems to contradict the notion that Jordan invaded israel. It seems to contradict portrayals of israel being the victims of invasion. Israel attacked Egypt and egypt retaliated with its treaty partners. > > Like I said, I don’t think israel has to wait until its nose is bloodied before it strikes but the analogy has been Russia taking land in Germany after Germany invaded it. The analogy seems to gloss over some galring differences between the two situations. > > If the rationale is Israel is doing it because it has the muscle to do so, then fine but that doesn’t seem to be a formula for a lasting peace of regional prostperity. Jordan _did_ invade Israel. The Israelis attacked Egypt in a pre-emptive strike; but they did not attack Jordan. They wanted Jordan to sit out the war, and the Jordanian King seriously considered it. However, Nasser persuaded him otherwise, basically by lying to him about the military situation. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/415 "2011-05-26T17:16:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So are you saying that teh Israeli offer wasn’t really a sincere offer it was an attempt to get a Palestinian offer on the table, or to define the Palestinian offer? Meanwhile, Arafat viewed every inch of Israel as a concession? I dunno where you are getting your first sentence from. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/416 "2011-05-26T17:16:36Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Dennis Ross is basically known as israel’s lawyer. One of the top AIPAC people said recently that if Ross had been one of Obama’s inner circle when Obama made the demand that Israel stop settlement building a while ago that “the silly demand would never have been made”. I’m phrasing from memory but basically Ross speaking to Fox news is about as far away from an objective source as you can get. Verses the famed objectivity of Hussein Agha? How long has he been advising the PNA again? You may not like Ross, but he’s not wrong here. The failure of Camp David/Taba to go forward is on Arafat. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/417 "2011-05-26T17:17:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What happens if the arab spring results in a bunch of democratic states that want to pick a fight with Israel? First, I have yet to see a transition to democracy anywhere. Second, what makes you think democratic states are _more_ likely to go to war? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/418 "2011-05-26T17:20:21Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > As the years have gone over the Palestinians have taken any US peace initiatives less and less seriously, because they’re basically kabuki theatre to let the US and Israel look like they’re serious about making peace. Compare and contrast any Israeli “offer” with the Anglo-Irish peace agreement - > > Israel want to dictate who they’ll negotiate with. The Brits/Unionist sat down and negotiated in good faith with terroprists. > > Israel _won’t even suspend settlement building during negotiations_ while the Brits and the Unionists made huge concessions before even sitting down with the Republicans to show they were going to make a good faith attempt at peace. > > Any terrorist acts during the years-long negotiations didn’t have the Brits/Unionists shut them down, rather they doubled down and tried harder to make an agreement. the biggest terrorist atrocity of the entire 40 year modern-era Northern Ireland troubles didn’t stop the process. > > Looking at how israel are contiuing their illegal 40+ year occupation and _continuing to build illegally while claiming to want peace_ and comparing it to the Irish situation tells you everything you need to know about how serious the Israelis are about making peace. So, Israel should make concessions, ignore terrorist attacks, and negotiate with Hamas - even though Hamas has outright _declared_ that any negotiations it undertakes with Israel are purely strategic and a waste of time. If it doesn’t, it isn’t serious, and the Palestinians are fully justified in ignoring any and all peace offers. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/419 "2011-05-26T17:25:16Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > As the years have gone over the Palestinians have taken any US peace initiatives less and less seriously, because they’re basically kabuki theatre to let the US and Israel look like they’re serious about making peace. Compare and contrast any Israeli “offer” with the Anglo-Irish peace agreement - Apples to earlobes. What do the Palestinians want? > [@](#): > > Israel want to dictate who they’ll negotiate with. That’s relatively common. They are the power player. > [@](#): > > The Brits/Unionist sat down and negotiated in good faith with terroprists. Anyone can negotiate with a terrorist. But negotiating with someone who doesn’t see the same end goal as you is pointless. > [@](#): > > Israel _won’t even suspend settlement building during negotiations_ GTFO! no way. Cause I was so reading about a [10 month settlement freeze](http://articles.cnn.com/2010-07-04/world/west.bank.settlements_1_west-bank-settlements-freeze?_s=PM:WORLD) last year where oh yeah _nothing happened_ and Obama was like, er, plz wait longer! We’ll set up a mtg! BRB! > [@](#): > > while the Brits and the Unionists made huge concessions before even sitting down with the Republicans to show they were going to make a good faith attempt at peace. What does this have to do with Israel? Nothing. > [@](#): > > Looking at how israel are contiuing their illegal 40+ year occupation and _continuing to build illegally while claiming to want peace_ and comparing it to the Irish situation tells you everything you need to know about how serious the Israelis are about making peace. Nah. Just shows how little you know about foreign policy, Israeli history, and, you know, saying things that make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/420 "2011-05-26T18:19:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > … > You seem to have extremely odd beliefs regarding how Jews should be seen in comparison to others. I don’t hold odd beliefs. Despite the fact that it is the policy, despite the fact that it is popular and despite the fact that most sides of the argument agree that it is true, I struggle with and remain unconvinced that Jews are to be held to a much lower standard of behaviour than normal, civilized human beings. > [@](#): > > On an earlier thread you enthusiastically argued that adult Jewish civilians(though not children) living on the West Bank were legitimate targets and supported their killing. Accordingly I cannot accept the state-sponsored looting and endless lies. The shrug that “well, what can you expect?” which is applied to the looters, occupying army and Israelis generally, that dismissive shrug fails to convince me. > [@](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13588330#post13588330](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13588330#post13588330) > > When asked if you also supported the targeting and killing of Han Chinese in Tibet who are living on occupied territory and the targeting and killing of American Whites living in the US or Canada you refused to give an answer. My questions had priority. > [@](#): > > … Now, my guess for your animosity towards Jews is that you don’t know very many or much about them, or else you wouldn’t have made such a demonstrably false statement about the “variety of American Judaism.”… Animosity? I’m not the one wedded to the position that Jews are lowly sub-humans. That’d be the “lesser standard” crowd. Revise your interpretation, nothing I’ve put forward is false, demonstrable or otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=22)