# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/461 "2011-06-02T07:51:54Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Israel didn’t stop building settlements in Jerusalem. The criterion set by the Palestinians and the US to restart peace talks was that israel freeze settlement building and Israel didn’t freeze settlement building, which is why the Palestinians refused to restart talks. What part of this don’t you understand? They stopped settlement building. They just didn’t stop construction in Jerusalem. Jerusalem’s not a settlement. It’s the capital. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/462 "2011-06-02T07:52:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > cite? According to the White House, they were pleased and then discouraged. Reuters has gotten shit wrong in regards to geography and who said what (as has AP), but I’m posting [this](http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/07/us-palestinians-israel-talks-idUSTRE6B65QT20101207) so you don’t accuse me of giving you Israeli sound bites. > [@](#): > > The decision marked a significant foreign policy setback for Obama,\*\* who had appealed personally to Israel to extend its temporary construction freeze\*\*. > > Obama, in launching the talks in September, said he hoped to have a peace deal signed in a year, but the lack of a settlement agreement and the collapse of direct talks appeared to put that timeline in doubt. > > In Washington, officials said the United States was weighing a return to indirect talks following its failure to revive the direct negotiations. > > Two officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, gave three reasons why the Obama administration decided to abandon the effort. > \*\* > They said that while Israel was willing to extend the moratorium, it was not willing to freeze construction in East Jerusalem, something Palestinian officials had demanded as they want that part of the city as capital of their state.\*\* > > “(Extending) the moratorium did not close the gap between the two parties,” said one U.S. official. > > Second, the officials said that unless they made sufficient progress during a temporary Israeli extension of the moratorium they could end up in the same place in three months – still struggling to keep the peace process alive. [Beginning of Settlement Freeze](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703558004574581672227706980.html) [At the end of the road](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/1012/A-new-Israeli-settlement-freeze-What-s-behind-Netanyahu-s-offer) > [@](#): > > "[Netanyahu] knows it’s a non-starter,‘’ says Yossi Alpher, a former peace process adviser to the Israeli government and the co-editor of the opinion forum [Bitterlemons.org](http://Bitterlemons.org). "[The Palestinians] are prepared to end the conflict, but for them to accept Israel as a Jewish state is for them to negate their whole narrative.‘’ They don’t want peace. They want all of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/463 "2011-06-02T07:54:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The Palestinians have to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist (there is simply no point in sitting down with someone who only want to help you plan your funeral) They won’t recognize Israel and they never have. _Ever_. So who is being an obstacle to peace again? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/464 "2011-06-02T08:11:12Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > They won’t recognize Israel and they never have. _Ever_. So who is being an obstacle to peace again? I think they probably will someday. I think two things are happening in Palestinian demographics. First, the Nakbah generation is dying off, and secondly, the West Bank Palestinian population is overwhelming the refugee Palestinian population. And that’s a big thing, because the two groups have different goals. The refugee population, the Nakbah population, want their land back. The West Bank population just wants Israel off their land. So the West Bank population is more content with a Palestine along the 1967 borders, and that, I think, makes peace possible. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wasn’t there some sort of treaty obligation? And like you said, Israel struck first by pre-emptively blowing up the Egyptian air force, it seemed like the events were being portrayed a bit differently than that. After the Straits of Tiran were blockaded. A blockade is an act of war in itself, remember. And Jordan didn’t enter into the treaty with Egypt until just before the Six Day war started when it looked like it was going to be inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/465 "2011-06-02T08:16:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think they probably will someday. I think two things are happening in Palestinian demographics. First, the Nakbah generation is dying off, and secondly, the West Bank Palestinian population is overwhelming the refugee Palestinian population. And that’s a big thing, because the two groups have different goals. The refugee population, the Nakbah population, want their land back. The West Bank population just wants Israel off their land. So the West Bank population is more content with a Palestine along the 1967 borders, and that, I think, makes peace possible. I hope so. But when you factor in low unemployment, gangs, and angry twenty somethings, I’m not positive. I’d like to think so, because Israel’s political demographics are moving as well. And hopefully Israel can finally settle down and focus on its domestic issues, cause the ultra right wing of the right needs to stop controlling shit. Seriously? It’s 2011 and the Rabbinic Council, representing a minority of Jewish Israelis, gets to dictate \* family courts\*still - without listening to the legislature or Ministry? No wonder the country suffers brain drain. :rolleyes: It’s ‘democratic’ status isn’t in danger because of the OTs but because of that shit. I ranted…Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/466 "2011-06-02T14:10:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wasn’t there some sort of treaty obligation? And like you said, Israel struck first by pre-emptively blowing up the Egyptian air force, it seemed like the events were being portrayed a bit differently than that. The '67 War can only be portrayed as on Israel’s initiative if one is ignorant of the circumstances. Yes, it is certainly true that the shooting started with an Israeli strike. But the War started with the Egyptian blocade of Israeli shipping, which together with Nasser ordering the UN out of the Sinai, moving the Egyptian army _into_ the Sinai, seeking unified command of all Arab forces, announcing in speeches that he was going to destroy Israel, etc. etc. convinced the Israelis that they had passed the point of no return. Quotes from Israelis, May 19, 1967: > [@](#): > > Israel [will] not initiate hostilities “…until or unless (Egyptian forces) close the Straits of Tiran to free navigation by Israel” - Prime Minister Levi Eshkol message to France’s President de Gaulle. > > “Israel would stop at nothing to cancel the blockade. It is essential that President Nasser should not have any illusions.” - Eshkol tells leading maritime powers > > “Our intention to regard the closing of the Straits as a casus belli was communicated…to the foreign ministers of those states which had supported international navigation in the Straits in 1957 and thereafter. There can be no doubt that these warnings reached Cairo. One thing was now clear. If Nasser imposed a blockade, the explosion would ensue not from ‘miscalculation’, but from an open-eyed and conscious readiness for war.” - Abba Eban Quote from Syria, May 20, 1967: > [@](#): > > “Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse any aggression, but to initiate the act ourselves, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland of Palestine. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united. I believe that the time has come to begin a battle of anihilation.”- Syria’s Defence Minister Hafez Assad (later to be Syria’s President). Quote from Nasser, May 26, 1967: > [@](#): > > "Taking over Sharm el Sheikh meant confrontation with Israel (and) also meant that we were ready to enter a general war with Israel. The battle will be a general one and our basic objective will be to destroy Israel” - Gamal Abdel Nasser speech to the General Council of the International Confederation of Arab Trade Unions Quotes from Nasser, May 28, 1967: > [@](#): > > “The existence of Israel is in itself an aggression…what happened in 1948 was an aggression – an aggression against the Palestinian people. > …(the crisis had developed because) “Eshkol threatened to march on Damascus, occupy Syria and overthrow the Syrian regime. It was our duty to come to the aid of our Arab brother. It was our duty to ask for the withdrawal of UNEF. When UNEF went, we had to go to the Gulf of Aqaba and restore things to what they were when we were in Aqaba in 1956” - Gamel Abdel Nasser at a press conference for several hundred of the World’s press. [9] > “We will not accept any…coexistence with Israel.…Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel….The war with Israel is in effect since 1948”. - Gamel Abdel Nasser press conference May 30, 1967: > [@](#): > > “The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel … to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not of more declarations.” - Gamal Abdel Nasser speech The war started June 6, 1967. Now, with hindsight, it seems to me that most of what Nasser was saying was self-aggrandizing rhetoric, and he was not seriously planning for aggressive war - he was playing to the audience, domestically within Egypt and throughout the Arab world (where he was hugely popular). Naturally, he would have taken any chance to transform words into deeds, and he wasn’t unmindful of the pressure he was imposing on Israel - but his main purpose was to score propaganda victories, not necessarily military ones. The Israelis, the target of all this, had of course no way of knowing that. What they saw was: (1) Egypt committing what it had been _told in advance_ were acts of war - such as closing the straights; (2) Egypt moving its massive army into attack positions; (3) The UN washing its hands of Israel - removing its peacekeeping force, so that Israel was now on its own; (4) The Arab nations uniting behind Nasser for war (Jordan signed on at the last minute); and (5) Nasser and other leaders _publicly announcing_ that their intention was to wage aggressive war and destroy Israel. Add to this the fact that the Israeli army is a civilian, conscript force. “Calling up” the army basically removes a sizable chunk of the population from civilian life, at huge cost - the army _cannot_ be mobilized indefinitely, without the country collapsing (something the Egyptians well knew - their army was more a professional force, and could be kept in being indefinitely). Israel obviously could not demobilize with Egypt blockading them, and with itrs army on Israel’s border. Israel could not credibly call on the UN for help, because at Egypt’s insistance, the UN had abandoned them (the Israelis have never forgotten this, which explains much of their attitude towards the worth of that institution), What, if you were in the Israeli PM’s shoes, would you do? (Eskol, allegedly, had a nervous breakdown - in public! - which sent Israelis into a panic). In hindsight, people today seem to think the Israeli victory was inevitable. That was not evident at the time (much less, how much a one-sided pounding this war was to be). Israelis feared for their existence, and they had reason to do so. The Israelis did not want that war, tried whatever they could to stop it, and from their perspective were basically pushed into a corner where it was either fight or die. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/467 "2011-06-02T17:40:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > They stopped settlement building. They just didn’t stop construction in Jerusalem. Jerusalem’s not a settlement. It’s the capital. But Israel does have (illegal) settlements in Palestinian East Jerusalem and it didn’t stop building on them at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/468 "2011-06-02T17:42:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I understand it all perfectly. > > You seem to believe that Israel is required to give the Palestinians whatever they want before any negotiations begin. That’s not negotiation. > > This is very much like what Arafat rejected. He could have gotten 95+% of what he claimed to want. He refused it, apparently thinking he could get 100% thru terrorism and the intifada. And here we are. > > The Palestinians are refusing to make any concessions. Their position seems to be “give me everything I want. We can decide later if you get anything at all.” > > That is a pretty clear sign of who is willing to negotiate in good faith, and who is simply trying to get as much as they can at the bargaining table before trying to grab the rest by force. > > Regards, > Shodan If you understand it perfectly then you agree with me that israel didn’t stop building at any time. Excellent. As for who is willing to make concessions, see below posts for details. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/469 "2011-06-02T17:44:48Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > But the U.S. was pleased at the settlment freeze until Abbas complained. Jerusalem was never part of the deal. If Jerusalem is part of “OT”, then those Israeli Arabs aren’t Israelis and they should leave. Stat. Except that’s not going to happen and those Israeli Arabs are Israelis and should remain under Israel’s jurisdiction. Just like Jerusalem. > > Hardly right-wing: > > [Palestinians rebuff Barak’s latest peace offer](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/palestinians-rebuff-baraks-latest-peace-offer-623111.html) > > It’s not up to Abbas any more than it was up to Arafat. The Palestinians won’t have anything short of everything they want. Arafat lost control over his crowd a long time ago. Abbas barely has it. I said that several pages back. > > Maybe Abbas doesn’t want Rabin’s fate. > > Both Barak & Netanyahu have had experience with negotiations that spiked violence…I don’t think they’re going to be as casual about affairs this time. > > Without a full-scale war, this isn’t gonna happen. I had the same thesis several years ago. 😕 The US was not pleased at all as Israel didn’t freeze settlemt building. They just issued a statement saying that continuing building was not helpful to the peace process. And you keep saying that the Palestinians refuse to make any concessions. For you and other people making the same point, here’s the recent history of peace negotiations when they actually were taking place : - [ul] [li] [News](http://www.guardian.co.uk/)[/li][li] [World news](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world)[/li][li] [Israel](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/israel)[/li][/ul] ``` **[http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/01/21/Palestine-papers_620_120.jpg](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers)** **Secret papers reveal slow death of Middle East peace process** • Massive new leak lifts lid on negotiations ``` • PLO offered up key settlements in East Jerusalem • Concessions made on refugees and Holy sites [• Israel spurned offer of ‘biggest Jerusalem in history’](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestinians-israel-biggest-jerusalem-history) [• Palestinian leaders weak – and increasingly desperate](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-power-weakness-negotiations) [• The story behind the Palestine papers](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/story-behind-leaked-palestine-papers) [ul] [li] [/li][LIST] [li] [Tweet this](http://twitter.com/share)[/li][li] [http://static.guim.co.uk/static/105395/common/styles/images/icon\_reddit.gif](http://reddit.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fworld%2F2011%2Fjan%2F23%2Fpalestine-papers-expose-peace-concession)[/li][li] [http://static.guim.co.uk/static/105395/common/styles/images/icon\_buzz.gif](http://uk.buzz.yahoo.com/buzz?publisherurn=the_guardian665&targetUrl=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-expose-peace-concession&summary=%3Cp%3E%E2%80%A2+Massive+new+leak+lifts+lid+on+negotiations++%3Cbr+%2F%3E%E2%80%A2+PLO+offered+up+key+settlements+in+East+Jerusalem%3Cbr+%2F%3E%E2%80%A2+Concessions+made+on+refugees+and+Holy+sites%3C%2Fp%3E&headline=%20Secret%20papers%20reveal%20slow%20death%20of%20Middle%20East%20peace%20process%20%7C%20World%20news%20%7C%20The%20Guardian)[/li][/ul] [li] [Comments (…)](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-expose-peace-concession#start-of-comments)[/li][/LIST] [ul] [li] [Seumas Milne](http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/seumasmilne) and [Ian Black](http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/ianblack), [Middle East](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middleeast) editor[/li][li] [guardian.co.uk](http://www.guardian.co.uk/), Sunday 23 January 2011 20.08 GMT[/li] [![](http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/1/21/1295633214775/Palestine-papers-reveal-c-007.jpg) ](http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/1/21/1295633214775/Palestine-papers-reveal-c-007.jpg) The Palestine papers reveal the offer of concessions by Palestinian peace negotiators on areas such as the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount holy sites in Jerusalem. Photograph: Awad Awad/AFP/Getty Images ``` The [biggest leak of confidential documents in the history of the Middle East conflict](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers) has revealed that Palestinian negotiators secretly agreed to accept [Israel](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/israel)'s annexation of [all but one of the settlements built illegally in occupied East Jerusalem](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/east-jerusalem-land-palestine-papers). This unprecedented proposal was one of a string of concessions that will cause shockwaves among Palestinians and in the wider Arab world. ``` […] • The scale of [confidential concessions offered by Palestinian negotiators](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-power-weakness-negotiations), including on the highly sensitive issue of the right of return of Palestinian refugees. • How Israeli leaders privately asked for some Arab citizens to be transferred to a new Palestinian state. • The intimate level of covert co-operation between Israeli security forces and the Palestinian Authority. • The central role of British intelligence in drawing up a secret plan to crush Hamas in the [Palestinian territories](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestinian-territories). • How Palestinian Authority ¶ leaders were privately tipped off about Israel’s 2008-9 war in Gaza. As well as the [annexation of all East Jerusalem settlements except Har Homa](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestinians-israel-biggest-jerusalem-history), [the Palestine papers](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers) show PLO leaders privately suggested swapping part of the flashpoint East Jerusalem Arab neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah for land elsewhere. Most controversially, they also proposed a joint committee to take over the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount holy sites in Jerusalem’s Old City – the neuralgic issue that helped sink the Camp David talks in 2000 after Yasser Arafat refused to concede sovereignty around the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa mosques. The offers were made in 2008-9, in the wake of George Bush’s Annapolis conference, and were privately hailed by the chief Palestinian negotiator, [Saeb Erekat, as giving Israel “the biggest _Yerushalayim_ [the Hebrew name for Jerusalem] in history”](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-saeb-erekat-palestinian) in order to resolve the world’s most intractable conflict. > **[Secret papers reveal slow death of Middle East peace process](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-expose-peace-concession)** > > • Massive new leak lifts lid on negotiations • PLO offered up key settlements in East Jerusalem• Concessions made on refugees and Holy sites [/ul] And the Palestinians refuse to recognise Israel because Israel refuses to recognise a Palestinian state. Israel won’t give any clear outline of the borders they’d accept, they just keep building on land they’ve illegally occupied now for 40plus years. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/470 "2011-06-02T18:07:59Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > If you understand it perfectly then you agree with me that israel didn’t stop building at any time. Excellent. I understand your position, which is that Israel is required to give away the store, and the Palestinians aren’t. As mentioned, that’s not negotiation. > [@](#): > > As for who is willing to make concessions, see below posts for details. Your coding sucks, but I assume that you don’t expect any of this to be taken seriously, since they are not concrete offers by your definition. Besides, even your own cite says that the Palestinians deny what your “cite” claims - > [@](#): > > Qureia told AP that “many parts of the documents were fabricated, as part of the incitement against the … Palestinian leadership”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/471 "2011-06-02T22:12:32Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > They don’t want peace. They want all of Israel. Then what is the point of even trying to negotiate if all they want to do is work out the details of your funeral? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/472 "2011-06-02T22:13:34Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > They won’t recognize Israel and they never have. _Ever_. So who is being an obstacle to peace again? The person who doesn’t believes that peace is not possible because they have demonized the counterparty in their hearts. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/473 "2011-06-02T22:18:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The '67 War can only be portrayed as on Israel’s initiative if one is ignorant of the circumstances. I believe I posted in this very thread that noone is obligated to get their nose bloodied before they act. I was not saying “OOOHH those Zionists were aggressors knockicking out Egypt’s ability to defend itself before stealing their land” I was objecting to the “poor Israel is always the fucking victim ALWAYS, even when it kicks everyone’s ass” The argument had started going in the direction of "Israel taking land in 1967 is like Russia taking German land after Germany invaded Russia. its not analogous at all. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/474 "2011-06-03T14:13:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I believe I posted in this very thread that noone is obligated to get their nose bloodied before they act. I was not saying “OOOHH those Zionists were aggressors knockicking out Egypt’s ability to defend itself before stealing their land” I was objecting to the “poor Israel is always the fucking victim ALWAYS, even when it kicks everyone’s ass” The argument had started going in the direction of "Israel taking land in 1967 is like Russia taking German land after Germany invaded Russia. its not analogous at all. Israel isn’t “always the victim” - on the contrary. Look for example at the '56 Suez war. Israel was definitely the aggressor there (together with its co-conspirators, France and the UK). However, Israel taking the WB in '67 is clearly and obviously analogous to the Ruskies taking bits of Germany post WW2. Jordan invaded Israel, not the other way around. It is absurd and contrary to the historical facts to argue that Jordan had no choice but to go to war, because Israel attacked Egypt. The Jordanians clearly did not think so (and they were the ones who counted). On June 6, 1967, the Jordanian King was in contact with both the Israelis and the Egyptians. The Israelis begged him to keep out of the war (at the time, of course, they had no idea yet how smashing a victory it would be). Nasser begged the Jordanians to attack. Significantly, he succeeded, by lying to the Jordanians about the Egyptian military situation. He did not insist that Jordan must come in, because of its treaty obligations. Nasser’s message was that if Jordan stayed out, it would be ashamed before the entire Arab world and be denied any spoils of victory. In short, the war from the Jordanian perspective was a war of aggression. It lost, and lost the WB as consequence. Now, that being said, the Jordanians were of course nothing like the Nazis is behaviour (nor, for that matter, were the Israelis like the Communists!). However, as an analogy, the two are similar enough - lose a war of aggression and lose some territory. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/475 "2011-06-06T17:42:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I understand your position, which is that Israel is required to give away the store, and the Palestinians aren’t. As mentioned, that’s not negotiation. > > Your coding sucks, but I assume that you don’t expect any of this to be taken seriously, since they are not concrete offers by your definition. > > Besides, even your own cite says that the Palestinians deny what your “cite” claims - > Regards, > Shodan Originally we were arguing whether Israel did or didn’t stop building. Now you appear to be changing the subject to peace negotiations. I presume this means that you’re conceding your original arguiment. And when the Palestine Papers were released, the guys whose credibility was destroyed by them, like the guy you named and people like Saeeb erekat, claimed they were a fabrication, an Iranian plot, a whole bunch of weird and wonderful claims. But the majority of Palestinians named in the papers said yep, this is an accurate written reresenattion of what happened. And it was! It was basically minutes from what meetings took place released to the public. And it’s worth noting that this “the Palestinians won’tgive an inch, israel have to give away the store” claim that posters here are making isn’t even the default position among all Israeli right wing politicians. Like the former Mossad chief, a well-known Israeli righty pointed out at the weekend, the Israeli regime is completely intransigent and is ignoring actual Arab peace initiatives. In any peace deal Israel would be getting to keep areas that they’ve illegally occupied and built on for over forty years now. Exactly how is that “giving away the store”? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/476 "2011-06-06T18:29:12Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Originally we were arguing whether Israel did or didn’t stop building. Now you appear to be changing the subject to peace negotiations. I presume this means that you’re conceding your original arguiment. No, we have been talking about peace negotiations all along. But you claimed that Israel was to blame for the ongoing intifada, because they never made a concrete offer. Now you are claiming that Israel is to blame, even though the Palestinians never made a concrete offer. As I said, this is very much like the deal that Arafat turned down in favor of trying terrorism (again). He could have had 95+%, but he turned it down because he wanted (and thought he could get) 100%. Likewise, the Palestinians could have gotten a settlement freeze, but they turned it down because they thought they might be able to get Israel to pretend that Jerusalem was part of the agreement. They were wrong there, too. “We will agree to a settlement freeze everywhere except our capital.” “No, first freeze everything, or we won’t negotiate.” _That’s_ what is meant by “giving away the store”. In any peace deal the Palestinians would be getting to keep areas that they’ve illegally occupied and built on for over forty years now. But they won’t go for it. You want to blame Israel for it’s intransigence. Sounds kind of silly to me, especially since the Palestinian response to compromise offers tends to e “gimme that, and everything else, or no deal”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/477 "2011-06-06T21:29:04Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Israel isn’t “always the victim” - on the contrary. Look for example at the '56 Suez war. Israel was definitely the aggressor there (together with its co-conspirators, France and the UK). > > However, Israel taking the WB in '67 is clearly and obviously analogous to the Ruskies taking bits of Germany post WW2. > > Jordan invaded Israel, not the other way around. It is absurd and contrary to the historical facts to argue that Jordan had no choice but to go to war, because Israel attacked Egypt. The Jordanians clearly did not think so (and they were the ones who counted). On June 6, 1967, the Jordanian King was in contact with both the Israelis and the Egyptians. The Israelis begged him to keep out of the war (at the time, of course, they had no idea yet how smashing a victory it would be). Nasser begged the Jordanians to attack. Significantly, he succeeded, by lying to the Jordanians about the Egyptian military situation. He did not insist that Jordan must come in, because of its treaty obligations. Nasser’s message was that if Jordan stayed out, it would be ashamed before the entire Arab world and be denied any spoils of victory. > > In short, the war from the Jordanian perspective was a war of aggression. It lost, and lost the WB as consequence. > > Now, that being said, the Jordanians were of course nothing like the Nazis is behaviour (nor, for that matter, were the Israelis like the Communists!). However, as an analogy, the two are similar enough - lose a war of aggression and lose some territory. Can you cite to an article or something for the Israeli entreaties not to attack or the notion that treaty obligations had nothing to do with this considering Jordan was already mobilized and ready to attack? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/478 "2011-06-06T21:40:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, we have been talking about peace negotiations all along. But you are in fact reconsidering your position on the whole “HEY but they did stop settlement activity” in light of the fact that they didn’t stop settlement activity? > [@](#): > > “We will agree to a settlement freeze everywhere except our capital.” > > “No, first freeze everything, or we won’t negotiate.” > > _That’s_ what is meant by “giving away the store”. You have a very odd definition of “giving away the store” How the heck is freezing settlement activity giving away the store. I can see how going back to 1967 borders as a condition of negotiations is giving away the store but I don’t see how halting settlement activity is giving away the store. > [@](#): > > Sounds kind of silly to me, especially since the Palestinian response to compromise offers tends to e “gimme that, and everything else, or no deal”. So stopping settlement activity in Jerusalem is everything? It seems like a reasonable precondition to negotiations to require that you stop engaging in some provocative activity. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/479 "2011-06-06T22:12:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Can you cite to an article or something for the Israeli entreaties not to attack or the notion that treaty obligations had nothing to do with this considering Jordan was already mobilized and ready to attack? Sure - here’s an Israeli account (necessarily partisan): [http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/independent\_israels\_pre-emptive\_defensive\_strike.htm](http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/independent_israels_pre-emptive_defensive_strike.htm) > [@](#): > > But even more compelling, unnoticed by many but thoroughly documented in diplomatic archives, is the communication between the Israeli government and King Hussein of Jordan. On Tuesday, June 5, several hours AFTER the Jordan Legion had begun its bombardment of Jerusalem and Petakh Tikvah, Israel sent a message via the Rumanian Embassy to King Hussein. The message was short and clear: stop the bombardment now and we will not invade the West Bank. > > But King Hussein had already received a phone call from Nasser. This call was monitored by the Israeli Secret Service. Even though he knew that his air force was in ruins, Nasser told Hussein that Egyptian planes were over Tel Aviv and his armor was advancing on Israeli positions. Hussein believed him, and disregarded Israel’s plea. Had Hussein listened to Israel, the West Bank would still be in Jordanian hands. Instead he sent his troops in to the Israeli section of Jerusalem. Only AFTER its territorial integrity in Jerusalem was violated did Israel mount an assault on the Jordanian West Bank. While this article is partisan, the facts it cites are supported by reputable works of history, such as Oren’s _Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East,_ (which I recommend). Here is an example of yet another diplomatic message, from the Israeli gov’t archives: [http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1947-1974/16%20Message%20from%20Prime%20Minister%20Eshkol%20to%20King%20Huss](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1947-1974/16%20Message%20from%20Prime%20Minister%20Eshkol%20to%20King%20Huss) > [@](#): > > 16 Message from Prime Minister Eshkol to King Hussein- 5 June 1967 > > 5 Jun 1967 > > VOLUMES 1-2: 1947-1974 > > XI. THE SIX-DAY WAR > > 1. Message from Prime Minister Eshkol to King Hussein, 5 June 1967: > On the morning of 5 June 1967, Prime Minister Eshkol transmitted through the Chief of Staff of UNTSO a message to King Hussein asking Jordan to refrain from hostilities. Text: > > We are engaged in defensive fighting on the Egyptian sector, and we shall not engage ourselves in any action against Jordan, unless Jordan attacks us. Should Jordan attack Israel, we shall go against her with all our might. So, on June 5th, 1967, Israel sent messages _both_ through UNTSO and through the Romanian Embassy to King Hussein, essentially promising not to attack Jordan and begging for Jordan not to attack them (it was not yet obvious that the Israelis would win). King Hussein was convinced to ignore these messages by Nasser, who lied to him (over a phone line tapped by the Israeli secret service). The evidence is quite clear and not really controversial, as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/480 "2011-06-07T12:18:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But you are in fact reconsidering your position on the whole “HEY but they did stop settlement activity” in light of the fact that they didn’t stop settlement activity? They did freeze settlements, apart from in Jerusalem. > [@](#): > > So stopping settlement activity in Jerusalem is everything? Apparently it is to the Palestinians. > [@](#): > > It seems like a reasonable precondition to negotiations to require that you stop engaging in some provocative activity. Do you mean provocative activities like building in your own capital? I assume that you would agree that it would be reasonable for Israel to require that the Palestinians stop engaging in provocative activities like suicide bombings, firing rockets, and forming alliances with people who advocate mass murder before they will negotiate. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=25)