# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/481 "2011-06-07T13:25:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you mean provocative activities like building in your own capital? I’m pretty tired of these threads but this “logic”, the crass vulgarity and ignorance implied in this statement is really borderline insanity. Reminds me of another tribe called Serbs who had a motto of “wherever there’s a grave of a Serb - that is Serbia”. Rock on dude :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/482 "2011-06-07T15:24:10Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I’m pretty tired of these threads but this “logic”, the crass vulgarity and ignorance implied in this statement is really borderline insanity. > > Reminds me of another tribe called Serbs who had a motto of “wherever there’s a grave of a Serb - that is Serbia”. > > Rock on dude :rolleyes: You think referring to Jerusalem as the capital of Israel shows ignorance? Why? It is. You might as well complain that it’s ignorant to refer to “Istanbul” and that we should only refer to it as "Constantinople. Jerusalem has been around for thousands of years and the only time it was ever divided was between 1948 and 1967. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/483 "2011-06-07T16:54:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They did freeze settlements, apart from in Jerusalem.Apparently it is to the Palestinians. > Do you mean provocative activities like building in your own capital? Yes when the status of that capital is going to be part of what gets negotiated. > [@](#): > > I assume that you would agree that it would be reasonable for Israel to require that the Palestinians stop engaging in provocative activities like suicide bombings, firing rockets, and forming alliances with people who advocate mass murder before they will negotiate. Absolutely. If Fatah starts a suicide bombing campaign or started shooting rockets at Israel in the middle of negotiations then Israel would be entirely justified in halting negotiations. Making peace with hamas is not quite the same. Israel will have to deal with hamas sooner or later. They aren’t going anywhere unless they get replaced by something even more virulent. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/484 "2011-06-07T17:30:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, we have been talking about peace negotiations all along. > > But you claimed that Israel was to blame for the ongoing intifada, because they never made a concrete offer. Now you are claiming that Israel is to blame, even though the Palestinians never made a concrete offer. > > As I said, this is very much like the deal that Arafat turned down in favor of trying terrorism (again). He could have had 95+%, but he turned it down because he wanted (and thought he could get) 100%. Likewise, the Palestinians could have gotten a settlement freeze, but they turned it down because they thought they might be able to get Israel to pretend that Jerusalem was part of the agreement. They were wrong there, too. > > “We will agree to a settlement freeze everywhere except our capital.” > > “No, first freeze everything, or we won’t negotiate.” > > _That’s_ what is meant by “giving away the store”. > > In any peace deal the Palestinians would be getting to keep areas that they’ve illegally occupied and built on for over forty years now. But they won’t go for it. You want to blame Israel for it’s intransigence. Sounds kind of silly to me, especially since the Palestinian response to compromise offers tends to e “gimme that, and everything else, or no deal”. > > Regards, > Shodan As has already been pointed out to you you were originally arguing over whether there had been a settlment freeze or not. Are you still claiming that Israel froze all settlemt building or do you now agree with me that they didn’t? And as has also been pointed out to you Israel temporaily halting illegal construction on illegally occupied land is really difficult to describe as “giving away the store.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/485 "2011-06-07T17:43:51Z")
You don’t read very closely, do you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![JimH52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JimH52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimH52)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/486 "2011-06-07T17:50:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > As Jeffrey Goldberg points out, the President calling for an independent Palestinian State “based on 1967 borders” is nothing new. > > Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Ehud Barak all advocated for it. > > Also the ADL issued a statement praising the speech. > [http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/nothing-new-in-the-idea-that-67-borders-should-guide-peace-talks-updated/239162/](http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/nothing-new-in-the-idea-that-67-borders-should-guide-peace-talks-updated/239162/) Exactly! The Far Right misses that point, and only wants to bash Obama. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/487 "2011-06-07T17:56:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You think referring to Jerusalem as the capital of Israel shows ignorance? > > Why? > > It is. Here’s another one. Just piling more irreverent stuff down everyone’s throats. I don’t know what’s worse – pretending that you don’t understand the gist of my remark or that you don’t care and then continue drumming same line of irrelevant “logical thinking”. But then again, I’m all for clarity (even though I find it insulting that I have to explain this) so let me be clear - building a settlement on a yet to be negotiated or on a (as is case with East Jerusalem) clearly illegally acquired land - the activity is provocative for that reason alone. It has nothing to do with a city being capital or not (even though insisting on making it capital city makes ethnic cleansing all that more understandable). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/488 "2011-06-07T18:25:22Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Here’s another one. Just piling more irreverent stuff down everyone’s throats. > > I don’t know what’s worse – pretending that you don’t understand the gist of my remark or that you don’t care and then continue drumming same line of irrelevant “logical thinking”. > > But then again, I’m all for clarity (even though I find it insulting that I have to explain this) so let me be clear - building a settlement on a yet to be negotiated or on a (as is case with East Jerusalem) clearly illegally acquired land - the activity is provocative for that reason alone. It has nothing to do with a city being capital or not (even though insisting on making it capital city makes ethnic cleansing all that more understandable). The obvious counter-point is that pretty well everyone knows what a final peace settlement is going to look like, and it will not include a divided Jerusalem - even Obama has publicly said as much. _Insisting_ on that point remaining open, or no negotiations, is a non-starter - one may as well insist that the issue of the Israelis returning to the UN Partition Plan borders is ‘up for negotiation’, and so everything the Israelis are doing in the part the UN originally assigned to the Palestinians is a ‘provocation’. It is barking at the moon to insist that the Israelis hand over part of their capital city as part of a peace deal over a war that they won. It is simply contrary to reality. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/489 "2011-06-07T18:44:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The obvious counter-point is that pretty well everyone knows what a final peace settlement is going to look like, and it will not include a divided Jerusalem Obvious? Where do I get THOSE glasses? So, you’re saying that while these settlements in E.J. may be illegal today one day when final deal is reached they will no longer be. Because, it’s obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/490 "2011-06-07T19:21:32Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Obvious? Where do I get THOSE glasses? > > So, you’re saying that while these settlements in E.J. may be illegal today one day when final deal is reached they will no longer be. Because, it’s obvious. Yeah, that’s generally how borders move after a war, if they move. The unusual aspect of this case is that there has been no deal since '67, for which we can directly thank the “Three Nos” policy pursued by the Arab nations. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/491 "2011-06-07T20:14:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yeah, that’s generally how borders move after a war, if they move. If so, then Israel is simply not interested in peace. I knew that all along but it’s just nice that we got to that in a normal course of debate. What motive Israel has to negotitate when with every new “war” more settlements grow and more land is grabbed? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/492 "2011-06-07T20:27:50Z")
Why bother, **newcomer** , really? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/493 "2011-06-07T20:40:31Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > If so, then Israel is simply not interested in peace. I knew that all along but it’s just nice that we got to that in a normal course of debate. > > What motive Israel has to negotitate when with every new “war” more settlements grow and more land is grabbed? Israel’s not interested in a peace that involves giving up Jerusalem, no. That much has been pretty clear from the beginning. The West Bank settlements are up for negotiation. Jerusalem isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/494 "2011-06-07T21:01:37Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > If so, then Israel is simply not interested in peace. I knew that all along but it’s just nice that we got to that in a normal course of debate. > > What motive Israel has to negotitate when with every new “war” more settlements grow and more land is grabbed? I dunno why you are using scare quotes around the word “war”. The 1967 “war” was a bonna fide war, as was that in '73. Israel has, in point of fact, given up considerable land taken in war - for example, all of the Sinai, to Egypt. For which it received a peace deal. It has also unilaterally abandoned the Gaza Strip. What it will not do, and everyone who is seriously interested in the subject knows as much, is give away part of its capital city. That isn’t up for grabs (though pretty well everything else is). Israel has every motive to negotiate - a continual state of non-peace isn’t doing it any good - and it has, in point of historical fact, attempted repeatedly to do so, in face of some pretty serious lack of interest on the part of the Arab nations (see for example the “3 Nos” policy, referenced previously). That at least some Arab nations are also interested is proved by the peace deal with Egypt, frequent loser in arab-israeli conflicts … The recent Palestinian platform appears to be, basically, the “3 Nos” lite: claim to be interested in negotiation, but assume preconditions that make actual negotiation futile, and reject every compromise. Failing to recognize that the winner of the wars is not going to hand over part of its capital city to the losers is exactly the sort of lack-of-reality tactic that one would expect from this. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/495 "2011-06-07T22:06:59Z")
Newcomer since you’re insisting that Israel “illegally” obtained East Jerusalem from Jordan when Jordan invaded them, do you think that Jordan was “illegally occupying” East Jerusalem and the West Bank prior to the Six Day War? If you don’t think Jordan had “illegally obtained” that land, please explain your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/496 "2011-06-08T00:01:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Israel has every motive to negotiate - a continual state of non-peace isn’t doing it any good But they will only agree to a peace that gives them almost everything they want and gives the Palestinians almost nothing they want? Do you expect that sort of peace to last longer than it takes for Palestinians to get powerful enough to extract a better deal? > [@](#): > > (see for example the “3 Nos” policy, referenced previously) And when the fuck was that? Back when the Democratic party was still the party of the KKK? > **[Khartoum Resolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khartoum_Resolution)** > > ،لا صلح مع إسرائيل > ،لا تفاوض مع إسرائيل > .لا اعتراف بإسرائيل > No peace with Israel, > No negotiation with Israel, > No recognition of Israel. Have you heard of this? > **[Arab Peace Initiative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_peace_initiative)** > > The Arab Peace Initiative (Arabic: مبادرة السلام العربية; Hebrew: יוזמת השלום הערבית), also known as the Saudi Initiative (Arabic: مبادرة السعودية; Hebrew: היוזמה הסעודית), is a 10 sentence proposal for an end to the Arab–Israeli conflict that was endorsed by the Arab League in 2002 at the Beirut Summit and re-endorsed at the 2007 and at the 2017 Arab League summits. The initiative offers normalisation of relations by the Arab world with Israel, in return for a full withdrawal by Israel from t... I know I’ve mentioned it a few times. > [@](#): > > That at least some Arab nations are also interested is proved by the peace deal with Egypt, frequent loser in arab-israeli conflicts … So you think the answer is to keep kicking their ass until they accept the deal you are willing to give? What’s your point? > [@](#): > > The recent Palestinian platform appears to be, basically, the “3 Nos” lite: claim to be interested in negotiation, but assume preconditions that make actual negotiation futile, and reject every compromise. Failing to recognize that the winner of the wars is not going to hand over part of its capital city to the losers is exactly the sort of lack-of-reality tactic that one would expect from this. Wait. What?!? Stopping settlement activity in East Jerusalem is a precondition that makes negotiations futile? No, that’s ISRAEL making preconditions when it takes East Jeruslaem off the table. Lack of reality or not, expecting a lasting peace with the sort of conditions that Israel is insisting on is perhaps just as much of a lack of reality tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/497 "2011-06-08T00:02:34Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Newcomer since you’re insisting that Israel “illegally” obtained East Jerusalem from Jordan when Jordan invaded them, do you think that Jordan was “illegally occupying” East Jerusalem and the West Bank prior to the Six Day War? > > If you don’t think Jordan had “illegally obtained” that land, please explain your reasoning. Name 5 countries that recognize all of Jerusalem as part of Israel. Heck, name 3. There is a reason why all the embassies are in Tel Aviv. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/498 "2011-06-08T00:13:41Z")
And yet no one recognized East Jerusalem as part of Jordan, either. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/499 "2011-06-08T00:50:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Name 5 countries that recognize all of Jerusalem as part of Israel. Heck, name 3. There is a reason why all the embassies are in Tel Aviv. I didn’t realize you were newcomer. That said, you completely ignored the question so I’ll ask again. When Jordan had control of the West Bank and East Jerusalem had those territories been “illegally obtained”? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/500 "2011-06-08T11:28:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But they will only agree to a peace that gives them almost everything they want and gives the Palestinians almost nothing they want? No. The deal that gave the Palestinians 95+% of what they wanted, that Arafat rejected, has already been mentioned. Similarly, Israel freezes settlements everywhere except in Jerusalem, and the Palestinians reject the deal. The Palestinians are the ones expecting to get everything they want before negotiations begin. That’s not going to happen. > [@](#): > > Do you expect that sort of peace to last longer than it takes for Palestinians to get powerful enough to extract a better deal? That seems to be how the Palestinians expect things to happen. “Give us almost everything. Once we are strong enough, we will kill you and take the rest.” As mentioned - not gonna happen. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=26)