# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/521 "2011-06-09T14:08:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The probglem is that the Israeli negotiating position is not based on “they have nowhere else to go” they wouldn’t insist on the sort of things they insist on based on that factor. No, the Israeli secret weapon is not so secret. They are stronger and mroe powerful and exepct a resolution of the peace process that conforms more with relative power between thye participants than with equity. You are assuming of course that there is such a thing in what amounts to an ethno-nationalist conflict as objective “equity” - that is, some sort of fairness that, where there a neutral arbiter to judge matters, could be chosen as the fair deal. What would that look like? 1. - one side “wins” and the other “loses”, like a court case? If Israel is found “unequitable”, should its population pack up and leave? And if so, where is it to go? 2. - Or, OTOH, should it be based on a recognition that history cannot be undone and that each party must make the best of it that they can through barganing? Fair enough. I think that there is in fact an objectively fair deal under the cirumstances under the second definition of “equity”, which goes something like this: - the Palestinains to get the WB, subject to certain subtractions around Jerusalem and territorial adjustments elsewhere; - Jerusalem is not to be divided and is Israeli. The Palestinians to get rights over Muslim holy places, like the Dome of the Rock. - No “right of return”. - Compensation for Palestinian losses in the form of money for development. The Palestinians are I think holding out for “equity” in the form #1 above - that is, hoping for a roll of the historical dice which will reverse the “disaster” of Israeli existence, and give them back everything they have lost … which isn’t gonna happen, at least in the near term, and certainly cannot be accomplished by “negotiations” since no-one can or will “negotiate” away their own existence - particularly, as you point out, if the Israelis have the stronger power. The Palestinians will have to settle for “equity” of the second sort; and the sooner they realize this and act on it, the better for them and everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/522 "2011-06-09T14:08:47Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > If people do not regard Jerusalem as a settlement, then yes, there was a settlement freeze. Thats a pretty big IF. I think people generally include development in East Jerusalem as settlement activity. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/523 "2011-06-09T14:15:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Everything ever written or said about the Middle East, more or less. > Yes, there was a settlement freeze. It did not include Jerusalem. The Palestinians rejected the freeze, because it didn’t give them everything they wanted. > > You aren’t going to understand it this time either, are you? > > Regards, > Shodan Oh, so when you say “everything they wanted” you mean that israel was not willing to fulfill every condition that Palestinians asked for prior to negotiations? Is THAT the context of your saying they didn’t get “everything they wanted” before negotiating? I thought you meant ti a different way. Not negotiating for not getting everything you want as a precondition to nenegotiations can be uinreasonable depending on what the preconditions are. I think halting settlement activity DURING negotiations is a reasonable request especially when that settlement activity is going on in an area that is going to be a subject of negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/524 "2011-06-09T14:19:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We are talking about the stuff on which there is disagreement. > > Does Israel actually want that other 95% of the West bank? where are these painful sacrifices taht Netenyahu was talking about? Surely you jest. There are many, many things that the Israelis want in the WB - first, several cities which used to have major Jewish populations and holy sites in them, but above all access to the Jordan river and its water resources. > [@](#): > > By realistic, you mean anything that Israel is entirely content with. See arab peace plan. > > Has Lebanon suffered any less? Why aren’t the Lebanese pounding down Israel’s door for a peace deal? There are perhaps a dozen countries hostile to Israel and in every potential peace deal there is only one common element. Israel. There is one organization that has not offered a lasting peace with Israel and that has been Israel’s excuse for not dealing with everyone else. I don’t think many Jews are going to buy the ‘if everyone hates you, the common factor is you’ argument. 😃 Why has Lebanon not asked for peace? Well, a factor may be the fact that Lebanon is hardly a united country. For years it was in Syrian fiefdom and to this day it houses several armed factions struggling for power, most notably Hezbollah (backed by the Iranians and Syrians). It is no wonder that a peace deal with Lebanon is elusive. The Lebanese have to be masters in their own house, before they can make peace with others. The Syrians and Iranians are seriously, hard-core evil, and have no abstract interest in peace. > [@](#): > > Or a mroe reasonable Israel. > > And giving up claims to jerusalem entirely is a reaonable “ask” for the Palestinians? No compromise is possible? How can one “compromise” over whether or not to divide one’s capital city? You either divide it or not - and given the unhappy experience of a divided capital in the past, it is going to be “not”. > [@](#): > > Well, I think that would be generous and Israel would probably be able to buy peace for that sort of a deal (and some in this thread have suggested that this sort of generosity is exactly what is necessary for peace to be reached) but i don’t think anyone feels Israel has to go that far to achieve peace. But Israel must go further than where it is willing to go today. Well, they have to get rid of Bibi, that’s a given. He’s got no more interest in making a deal than the Palestinians. But previous Israeli politicos put their careers on the line to achive a peace - and failed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/525 "2011-06-09T14:31:35Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Israel does, and that’s all that matters. Not if they want peace with teh palestinians it isn’t. Israel doesn’t get to negotiate with itself. There is another party at the table. > [@](#): > > It conducts its political affairs there, has control over it, develops it, and it is part of Israel. > [@](#): > > If Jerusalem functions as Israel’s capital, it is. The U.S. also recognizes Jerusalem, but even the mighty U.S. does not create capitals. > **[Status of Jerusalem | United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_on_Jerusalem#United_States)** > > When Israel was founded, the position of the United States was that its recognition of Israel did not imply a particular view on the status of Jerusalem. The U.S. voted for the UN Partition Plan in November 1947, which provided for the establishment of an international regime for the city, and Resolution 194 in 1948, following the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. But the U.S. voted against Resolution 303 in 1949 which reaffirmed that Jerusalem be established a corpus separatum under a special internat On 6... There is some consensus about West Jerusalem’s status as Israel’s capital, there is not about East Jerusalem as far as i can tell. > [@](#): > > It _is_ their capital. there is question about whether it is “theirs” at all. > [@](#): > > They will not give it up. There’s no negotiating on that. Then there simply may not be room for a deal and we will have to wait until Israel commits genocide or the Palestinians get their hands on a nuke. > [@](#): > > edit: They do let Muslims have control over the Dome of the Rock and Judaism’s holiest site, so I think that says something. Sure, its speaks volumes, its why Israel is our ally antd the Taliban is not. If the Taliban had control over Jerusalem, they would have flattened every non-muslim holy structure and built a mosque on top of it or something. If your point is that Israel is better than the taliban or the militant arm of hamas, then sure, those guys are cocksuckers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/526 "2011-06-09T14:33:54Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > The PLO wants: > > 1. East Jerusalem > 2. Right of Return > 3. Reparations > 4. Banning of IDF in the Jordan > > Hamas wants: > > 1. All of it. > > The Palestinians: > > 1. Aren’t united. Hamas’ position has shifted over time. I believe they have offered a 10 year truce for 1967 borders and a 10 year truce can turn into peace. but, I agree, they are a huge impediment to the peace process. They’re looking for a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/527 "2011-06-09T14:46:31Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why are you refusing to answer my question. > > Do you think that Jordan had illegally occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem? > > That is what Newcomer and I were discussing when you butted in on the conversation so have the courtesy and the courage to explain your position. I’m sorry if I butted in on your conversation. I didn’t see the do not disturb sign. You raise an interesting but irrelevant point. But, yes I think the occupation of the West Bank and East J’lem was illegal. > [@](#): > > Also, while we’re at it, since Jordan is part of historic Papestine until severed by the British to reward the Hashemites(who weren’t even from Jordan) don’t you think that a good solution would be to give Jordan to the Palestinians, particularly since most of Jordan is Palestinian. If you want to go back in time to find a solution, I’d say we create the state of Israel in Germany. What claim did Israel have to what we now call Israel? Why should we give any of it to the Zionists, never mind half. > [@](#): > > I assume, since you care so deeply about the Palestinians and their cause, that you’re outraged, outraged that the Hashemites have been allowed, with the assistance of the British and the Americans to steal land that rightfully belongs to the Palestians and give them less freedom and prosperity than the Palestinians under Israeli rule? > > Certainly if you felt that way it would go a long way to show that you care about the Palestinians when their oppressors aren’t Jewish. I don’t care about the Palestinians any more than I cared about blacks in South Africa. I am not pro-Palestinian, so much as I am anti-zionist. I care more about the actions of my allies than the welfare of every poor downtrodden person in the world. I care how that ally affects my positions on foreign policy and how support for that ally (regardless of its actions) brings death and destruction to my doorstep. > [@](#): > > when their oppressors aren’t Jewish BTW, this is the sort of thing I am talking about when i say that Israel apologists resort fo accusations of anti-semitism. Oh wait, I forgot, Ibn is a critic of israel because he thinks that the Balfour Declaration was a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/528 "2011-06-09T14:50:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Hamas’ position has shifted over time. I believe they have offered a 10 year truce for 1967 borders and a 10 year truce can turn into peace. This is the kind of thing I meant by “Give us almost everything. Once we are strong enough, we will kill you and take the rest.” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/529 "2011-06-09T14:56:56Z")
Damuri, I don’t know where you get your history from but you need better sources. You’re apparently under the impression that Barak told Arafat at Camp David that he had to give up all claim to Jerusalem. He didn’t. You also seem to be under the impression that Arafat walked away from the table because Israel didn’t give him 100% of the West Bank and Jerusalem. He didn’t and never claimed he did. He walked away and started engaging in terror attacks again because Israel refused to grant the “right of return” to sever million Palestinians which Israel wasn’t going to do because it meant the end of the Jewish state and the Israelis would no more find acceptable a compromise that didn’t allow for the continued existence of a Jewish state than the Palestinians would find acceptable a compromise that didn’t allow for the existence of a Palestinian State. Also you have yet to explain how outraged you are at the Hashemites stealing land and freedom from the Palestinians with the aid of your government and the West. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/530 "2011-06-09T15:06:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is the kind of thing I meant by “Give us almost everything. Once we are strong enough, we will kill you and take the rest.” > > Regards, > Shodan Damuri also doesn’t seem to understand that Hamas offered a “Hudna” and the significance of that term form Muslims. As all Muslims know, Muhammad used a “Hudna” to give himself time to rearm, trick, and defeat his enemies. Hamas when they make such an offer are doing so to A) send a message to their fellow Muslims that it’s part of their plan to defeat Israel the way Muhammad defeated and slaughtered his enemies and B) to get gullible westerners unfamiliar with the region or the history to believe that the want peace not large numbers of dead Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/531 "2011-06-09T15:32:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Damuri also doesn’t seem to understand that Hamas offered a “Hudna” and the significance of that term form Muslims. > > As all Muslims know, Muhammad used a “Hudna” to give himself time to rearm, trick, and defeat his enemies. > > Hamas when they make such an offer are doing so to A) send a message to their fellow Muslims that it’s part of their plan to defeat Israel the way Muhammad defeated and slaughtered his enemies and B) to get gullible westerners unfamiliar with the region or the history to believe that the want peace not large numbers of dead Jews. ..C) allow right-wingers of Israel to come up with Taqiyya-ish arguments for accepting the status quo, pushing off peace efforts into the dim future and allowing the continued growth of Israel into disputed land until whenever they feel like not doing so, and D) allow right-wingers to call those who are really interested in peace ‘useful idiots’. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/532 "2011-06-09T15:50:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Peace. I thought peace was on the table. My understanding is that right of return and jerusalem are not. > [@](#): > > Because they got a halt to settlement activity except in Jerusalem. They rejected it precisely because it was not “everything”. OK now that I understand what you mean by “everything” I think it the palestinianr eaction was justified. In refusing to halt settlement activity in jeruslaem, isn’t Israel effectively taking jerusalem off the table? If that is a deal breaker for the palestinians, then they are entirely justified in not negotiating. > [@](#): > > It isn’t up to me; it’s up to the Palestinians and Israelis. Mostly the Palestinians. They keep turning down offers because it doesn’t include everything they are asking for. That’s not how you negotiate if you genuinely want peace. I could say the same for the israelis. > [@](#): > > It is not the case that none of this is Israel’s fault. It is also not the case that it is mostly or entirely Israel’s fault. I agree its not entirely israel’s fault but I have a hard time trying to figure out who is “mostly at fault” on the one hand you have decades of terrorism that has claimed the lives of hundreds of innocents and on the other hand you have a stolen nation and the oppression of a people. There seems to be enough blame to go around. > [@](#): > > The major advantage that the Palestinians have is that there is a core of people who will blame Israel no matter what. Israel has the right to exist, and to be secure within her borders. Their problem is that they are trying to negotiate with people who do not accept one or both of these as the basis for negotiation. I think that practically speaking, everyone has to accept Israel’s right to exist. The placement of the state of israel is (IMO) an unfortunate accident of history but the state itself must survive. I have said before that the only thing worse than 5 million Palestinian refugees is if they are joined by 5 million Israeli refugees. Israel has the nuke and if the nuke can protect the sovereignty of a country like North Korea then it should certainly protect the sovereignty of a country like Israel. In all likellihood that state must remain Jewish until the muslims in the area can be trusted not to oppress a Jewish minority (we might be waiting for a while to reach that Kumbayah moment but I have faith that we will get there one day). Here is the Hamas position (as a political party) on the question of the state of israel: “The question of recognizing Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people.This was a major shift away from their 1988 charter” They’ve got a long way to go but they’ve come a long way as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/533 "2011-06-09T16:18:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Everything ever written or said about the Middle East, more or less. > Yes, there was a settlement freeze. It did not include Jerusalem. The Palestinians rejected the freeze, because it didn’t give them everything they wanted. > > You aren’t going to understand it this time either, are you? > > Regards, > Shodan Point out exactly what it was that _you_ wrote that you don’t think i’m understanding. The actual words you wrote so that we actually have something to discuss instead of you continuing to duck and dive. Israel did not freeze settlement building in jerusalem. The original request, by the US and the Palestinians, was to temporaily freeze all settlement building regardless of where it was taking place. Israel refused to do this so the Palestinians refused to resume negotiations. What part of this don’t you agree with and if there is something you don’t agree with explain why with cites instead of continuing to duck and dive. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/534 "2011-06-09T16:21:59Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It wasn’t a _contract_. > > And need I remind you that the PLO has already said the Oslo Accords were invalid? When has any peace offer ever been a contract? Like a legal contract? Most\* peace offers are agreements put down on paper that then form the basis of peace agreements. israel didn’t produce anything resembling a peace offer. \*In fact I’d be surpeised if there was any other kind of serious peace offer that led anywhere that didn’t start out as a proposal set down on paper. Maybe somebody knows of one. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/535 "2011-06-09T17:13:36Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > ..C) allow right-wingers of Israel to come up with Taqiyya-ish arguments for accepting the status quo, pushing off peace efforts into the dim future and allowing the continued growth of Israel into disputed land until whenever they feel like not doing so, and D) allow right-wingers to call those who are really interested in peace ‘useful idiots’. It is certainly grossly unfair to claim that “the Palestinians” don’t want peace, but anyone who think Hamas actually wants peace is absurd. Remember, Hamas is not a nationalist organization. Their goal is not to give the Palestinians a state of their own, but to recover all the lands of the area that they feel, rightly or wrongly, belongs to the Muslim community. As far as they’re concerned, it is more important that the Jews NOT have a state than the Palestinians HAVE a state. That said, you’re certainly correct that right-wingers in Israel are pleased as punch with the idea of Hamas gaining more power and influence because the more powerful Hamas is the less likely there is for any sort of compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/536 "2011-06-09T17:39:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I agree its not entirely israel’s fault but I have a hard time trying to figure out who is “mostly at fault” on the one hand you have decades of terrorism that has claimed the lives of hundreds of innocents and on the other hand you have a stolen nation and the oppression of a people. Well, there’s your problem. Israel did not steal any nations. > [@](#): > > I think that practically speaking, everyone has to accept Israel’s right to exist. You forgot the rest, which is “and to be secure within her borders”. Which is why the idea of a ten year truce leading to permanent peace is ridiculous, when dealing with terrorists like Hamas and Hizbollah. > [@Dick Dastardly](#): > > Israel did not freeze settlement building in jerusalem. The original request, by the US and the Palestinians, was to temporaily freeze all settlement building regardless of where it was taking place. Israel refused to do this so the Palestinians refused to resume negotiations. What part of this don’t you agree with and if there is something you don’t agree with explain why with cites instead of continuing to duck and dive. The part where the Palestinians refused to negotiate unless they were already granted everything they wanted, as I have mentioned six or seven times already. The only ducking I have seen is from answering **Ibn Warraq** ’s question about Jordan illegally occupying the West Bank. Your crap about misrepresenting what people post and then pretending they agree with you doesn’t count. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/537 "2011-06-10T00:17:08Z")
Let’s say that both sides agree to make J’lem an international stateless city. Who governs? What citizenship do the inhabitants have? Who pays for things? What court do the inhabitants report to when they commit a crime? What about Gilo? If you want to separate E and W J’lem, then you have an issue of Jews, Christians and Arabs and their citizenship. The Palestinians will not want Jews on their ‘side’, and the Israelis will object to keeping (perceived) hostile Arabs on their ‘side’. But you can’t enact a population transfer without impeding on one’s citizenship rights, and as I posted before, about 30-40 per cent of Muslim Jerusalemites want to keep their Israeli citizenship. But Israel may use stuff like [this](http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article451559.ece) + the new Palestinian state as an an example of why ‘they’ shouldn’t be ‘allowed’. (Note that Zionist Arabs are usually OK.) So instead of saying, ‘Israel is such a boob for the Jerusalem issue! Dicks!’ maybe we can address some concerns? There are plenty of secular Israelis who don’t give two squats about religious movements but don’t want to see their capital city split up. **Damuri** , you said that Israel doesn’t negotiate with itself, but you are incorrect. In a democracy, that’s how it works. If Netanyahu just said, “Okay! Let’s get 'er done, now what can I do for you?” his government would fall apart. The U.S. has a different form of government, but even Obama’s foreign policy is tied to Congress. [Senators Oppose 67 Lines](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jtGYEu1f9NmbJ190wALWuukKQNzA?docId=CNG.557023d06544577e36567f0c1c7ba5cd.bc1) And what about Bethlehem? Do the Palestinian Christians prefer Israeli or PA control? Will their security change with a new and uncertain PA state? Didn’t the U.N. originally plan for part Bethlehem to be an international zone? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/538 "2011-06-10T03:38:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t care about the Palestinians any more than I cared about blacks in South Africa. I am not pro-Palestinian, so much as I am anti-zionist. I care more about the actions of my allies than the welfare of every poor downtrodden person in the world. I care how that ally affects my positions on foreign policy and how support for that ally (regardless of its actions) brings death and destruction to my doorstep. Comparing the Palestinians to black South Africans is utterly moronic. To give two examples that would be obvious to all familiar with both situations, Palestinians aren’t living in shanty towns and are quite well educated while most black South Africans lived in shanty towns and the vast majority were completely illiterate. In fact the first elections in which black South African participated in required all ballots to have pictures of the candidates to make sure that voters didn’t vote for the wrong candidates. Moreover, if you’re concerned about how Palestinians are treated by “our allies” I’d point out that Jordan is a close ally of the US as is Kuwait, which ethnically cleansed several hundred thousand Palestinians following the end of the first Gulf War. So, please point me to some of your posts where you’ve raged against those countries and how they’ve treated the Palestinians. > [@](#): > > BTW, this is the sort of thing I am talking about when i(sic) say that Israel apologists resort fo(sic) accusations of anti-semitism. Oh wait, I forgot,(sic) Ibn is a critic of israel(sic) because he thinks that the Balfour Declaration was a mistake. Dude, I’m not accusing you of anti-Semitism. I’m merely pointing out that you have weird ideas about Jews since you’ve demanded of posters if they’re Jewish and claimed you can predict a person’s political beliefs if they’re Jewish. That’s not remotely the same thing as anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/539 "2011-06-10T04:12:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is the kind of thing I meant by “Give us almost everything. Once we are strong enough, we will kill you and take the rest.” > > Regards, > Shodan Once again, I will ask you. WTF are you bothering with negotiatoions for. Just try to commit genocide in a way that the world will not totally freak out over. It seems to be the only long term solution you are leaving room for. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/540 "2011-06-10T04:22:28Z")
He appears to be a bit…Judeo-phobic. He doesn’t seem to understand that Jews in America are sympathetic the plight of Israelis due to Islamic anti-Semitism\*. Not many are ‘Israel apologists’. If they are, they aren’t serious academics. There was much talk about the Arab-American vote and Obama as Arab Americans are concerned with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. These Arab-Americans aren’t necessarily Palestinian - it’s about personal identification, religion, and fear of persecution based on one’s ethnic/religious background. Why isn’t there outcry on SD about how Muslims want to ‘control American foreign policy’? Alan Dershowitz is no more an apologist (well, I’m basing this on _The Case for Israel_) of Israel than Khalidi is of the PLO. They offer different legal perspectives. They are both biased and can cause offense, but neither are hateful. What Hamas, the PLO, Iran, Hezbollah, etc. project _is_ hatred. When MK Leiberman says that only Orthodox Jews should be allowed aliyah or that Muslims should be deported to Palestine, that’s hatred. But…if someone’s rejection of your argument is, “Oh, well you just want to cry antiSemitism because you are an apologist!” I have to wonder if they do hold questionable views, are ignorant, or are just extremely sensitive to disagreement. Criticism of Israel is often a euphemism for anti-Semitism. I believe one can have anti-Semitic views and be very sincere about it - they’re just ignorant of facts. But Jews and Israelis are critical of Israeli government as well. If I were in Israel, I wouldn’t vote Likud, but because I’m Jewish and am disagreeing with someone in this thread, he sees me as religious Zionist/Israel apologist/god knows what. Israel isn’t ruled by some despot who has had control for the last 60 years and can be judged as one government. Usually, when talking about the “Palestinian” side, we are talking about the PLO (unless we distinguish ourselves and mention Hamas) as they been the representatives of the Palestinians since Jordan named the West Bank, well, the West Bank. That’s limited to a few people. Finally, the idea that America is ruled by someone else’s government doesn’t even make sense. America does what is in its best interests. If America did not need Israel, it would not care. \*and the history of people hating Jews for the last few thousand _years_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=28)