# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/541 "2011-06-10T04:24:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Damuri, I don’t know where you get your history from but you need better sources. > > You’re apparently under the impression that Barak told Arafat at Camp David that he had to give up all claim to Jerusalem. > > He didn’t. WTF are you talking about? What post of mine are you responding to? > [@](#): > > You also seem to be under the impression that Arafat walked away from the table because Israel didn’t give him 100% of the West Bank and Jerusalem. > > He didn’t and never claimed he did. Once again, what post are you responding to? I don’t recall saying any of this stuff, perhaps you can remind me. > [@](#): > > Also you have yet to explain how outraged you are at the Hashemites stealing land and freedom from the Palestinians with the aid of your government and the West. Once again, wtf are you talking about? It seems like there is a point you want to make but are trying to get me to make it for you. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/542 "2011-06-10T04:25:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Once again, I will ask you. WTF are you bothering with negotiatoions for. Just try to commit genocide in a way that the world will not totally freak out over. It seems to be the only long term solution you are leaving room for. \*\* Shodan \*\*is Israeli? This accusation of genocide has got to fucking stop. It’s nasty and untrue and I’m wondering where it comes from. Next you are going to tell me that Netanyahu participates in the blood libel of Palestinian children. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/543 "2011-06-10T04:26:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Damuri also doesn’t seem to understand that Hamas offered a “Hudna” and the significance of that term form Muslims. > > As all Muslims know, Muhammad used a “Hudna” to give himself time to rearm, trick, and defeat his enemies. > > Hamas when they make such an offer are doing so to A) send a message to their fellow Muslims that it’s part of their plan to defeat Israel the way Muhammad defeated and slaughtered his enemies and B) to get gullible westerners unfamiliar with the region or the history to believe that the want peace not large numbers of dead Jews. In 10 years Hamas may be irrelevant if Palestinians don’t feel as aggrieved as they do today. Have you read recent Hamas positions on the state of Israel? They seem open to the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/544 "2011-06-10T04:27:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > WTF are you talking about? What post of mine are you responding to? > > Once again, what post are you responding to? > > I don’t recall saying any of this stuff, perhaps you can remind me. > > Once again, wtf are you talking about? It seems like there is a point you want to make but are trying to get me to make it for you. If you’re so concerned about foreign policy, why not blame the Arab nations for picking on Israel so much? Then you wouldn’t have to worry about Israel’s defense! I mean, you are just concerned about your country’s security, right? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/545 "2011-06-10T04:27:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It is certainly grossly unfair to claim that “the Palestinians” don’t want peace, but anyone who think Hamas actually wants peace is absurd. > > Remember, Hamas is not a nationalist organization. Their goal is not to give the Palestinians a state of their own, but to recover all the lands of the area that they feel, rightly or wrongly, belongs to the Muslim community. > > As far as they’re concerned, it is more important that the Jews NOT have a state than the Palestinians HAVE a state. > > That said, you’re certainly correct that right-wingers in Israel are pleased as punch with the idea of Hamas gaining more power and influence because the more powerful Hamas is the less likely there is for any sort of compromise. From post 532: > [@](#): > > Here is the Hamas position (as a political party) on the question of the state of israel: > > “The question of recognizing Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people.This was a major shift away from their 1988 charter” ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/546 "2011-06-10T04:29:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In 10 years Hamas may be irrelevant if Palestinians don’t feel as aggrieved as they do today. Have you read recent Hamas positions on the state of Israel? They seem open to the idea. Open to the idea of temporary statehood and UN status so they can destroy the Jewish state? Yeah. I’ve heard. :rolleyes: They don’t recognize Israel as a _Jewish_ state. They recognize it a a _temporary government_ that should be eradicated so they can replace it with some perverted version of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/547 "2011-06-10T04:33:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, there’s your problem. Israel did not steal any nations. Well, I guess you can say they took it in a war. But I there are some people that think that taking it in a war was stealing. > [@](#): > > You forgot the rest, which is “and to be secure within her borders”. And WHAT in your opinion would make Israel secure within their borders short of genocide of the Palestinians? > [@](#): > > The part where the Palestinians refused to negotiate unless they were already granted everything they wanted, as I have mentioned six or seven times already. You are using the phrase “granted everything they want” in a very misleading way. I thought you meant granted everything they want as in right of return and East Jerusalem when in fact you are trying to portray the Palestinians as being greedy and unreasonable for refusing to negotiate while settlement activity was going on in Jerusalem. It is entirely reasonable to refuse to negotiate with someone who is building homes on the land you hope to regain during negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/548 "2011-06-10T04:37:58Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Let’s say that both sides agree to make J’lem an international stateless city. > > Who governs? Well, I had mentioned the Buddhists before. But I hear you, its a thorny issue, you have to find someone both sides trust. > [@](#): > > What citizenship do the inhabitants have? > > Who pays for things? > > What court do the inhabitants report to when they commit a crime? > > What about Gilo? Well, I guess Jeruslaem could be a city state like Singapore. > [@](#): > > **Damuri** , you said that Israel doesn’t negotiate with itself, but you are incorrect. In a democracy, that’s how it works. If Netanyahu just said, “Okay! Let’s get 'er done, now what can I do for you?” his government would fall apart. The U.S. has a different form of government, but even Obama’s foreign policy is tied to Congress. > [Senators Oppose 67 Lines](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jtGYEu1f9NmbJ190wALWuukKQNzA?docId=CNG.557023d06544577e36567f0c1c7ba5cd.bc1) Yes but they don’t get to vote amongst themselves and then act all surprised that their deal is not attractive to the other party. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/549 "2011-06-10T04:49:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Comparing the Palestinians to black South Africans is utterly moronic. That’s one opinion. The apartheid comparison has been made by several people including Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu, the guys who brokered the first peace in the middle east and the guy who helped bring an end to apartheid, respectively. Of course they were painted as anti-semites but that’s just what happens when you criticize Israel. Heck you’ve tried to imply that I was an anti-semite in this very thread. > [@](#): > > Moreover, if you’re concerned about how Palestinians are treated by “our allies” I’d point out that Jordan is a close ally of the US as is Kuwait, which ethnically cleansed several hundred thousand Palestinians following the end of the first Gulf War. Well, fuck them too. I have no great love for Jordan and I hope the Arab Spring brings in a more Democratic government in both places. > [@](#): > > Dude, I’m not accusing you of anti-Semitism. I’m merely pointing out that you have weird ideas about Jews since you’ve demanded of posters if they’re Jewish and claimed you can predict a person’s political beliefs if they’re Jewish. What are you talking about? When have I said I can predict your political beliefs based on your Jewishness? > [@](#): > > That’s not remotely the same thing as anti-Semitism. When you say that I only care about the plight of Palestinian when their oppressors are Jewish, the most apparent implication is that you think that anti-semitism is the source of my criticism of Israel. You once claimed to be a critic of israel, but you are not an anti-semetic one I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/550 "2011-06-10T04:53:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, I guess you can say they took it in a war. But I there are some people that think that taking it in a war was stealing. Do you know what a ‘nation’ is? 😕 There was no ‘nation’ of Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/551 "2011-06-10T04:56:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What are you talking about? When have I said I can predict your political beliefs based on your Jewishness? I’m not Jewish. Not even by the Nuremberg Racial laws. That said, thanks for confirming how you assume anyone who has a position on Israel you disagree with must be Jewish. > [@](#): > > When you say that I only care about the plight of Palestinian when their oppressors are Jewish, the most apparent implication is that you think that anti-semitism is the source of my criticism of Israel. You once claimed to be a critic of israel, but you are not an anti-semetic one I suppose. Your comment is completely inarticulate. Would you mind clarifying. BTW, earlier you seemed to argue that you felt that Jordan was illegally occupying the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Please explain why you think they were and give me some links to respectable people who feel Jordan was illegally occupying those areas. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/552 "2011-06-10T04:57:01Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > He appears to be a bit…Judeo-phobic. He doesn’t seem to understand that Jews in America are sympathetic the plight of Israelis due to Islamic anti-Semitism\*. Where did modern Islamic anti-semitism come from? Was it there in 1850? Or did it start after it became apparent that Jews wanted to create a state in Palestine? > [@](#): > > But…if someone’s rejection of your argument is, “Oh, well you just want to cry antiSemitism because you are an apologist!” I have to wonder if they do hold questionable views, are ignorant, or are just extremely sensitive to disagreement. Are you seriously saying that this is my argument? > [@](#): > > I believe one can have anti-Semitic views and be very sincere about it - they’re just ignorant of facts. Or they don’t see these facts from the same perspective as you do. > [@](#): > > Finally, the idea that America is ruled by someone else’s government doesn’t even make sense. America does what is in its best interests. If America did not need Israel, it would not care. What exactly so we need Israel for? How exactly are they helping us? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/553 "2011-06-10T04:57:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, I had mentioned the Buddhists before. But I hear you, its a thorny issue, you have to find someone both sides trust. Why would anyone give up their government to a foreign one? Seriously? I don’t want to be governed by Buddhists. I rather like being able to vote. > [@](#): > > Well, I guess Jeruslaem could be a city state like Singapore. Is this the same place that once outlawed gum-chewing and trial by jury? You’re under the impression that _democracy_ will lead to liberty. Hamas was democratically elected and they put gay people to death. For fuck’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/554 "2011-06-10T04:58:02Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > \*\* > Shodan \*\*is Israeli? > > This accusation of genocide has got to fucking stop. It’s nasty and untrue and I’m wondering where it comes from. Next you are going to tell me that Netanyahu participates in the blood libel of Palestinian children. WTF are you talking about? I am pointing out that Shodan’s philosophy leaves no room for peace short of killing your enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/555 "2011-06-10T04:59:58Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > If you’re so concerned about foreign policy, why not blame the Arab nations for picking on Israel so much? Then you wouldn’t have to worry about Israel’s defense! I mean, you are just concerned about your country’s security, right? 😉 And when was the last time an arab country invaded Israel? There is currently an offer by every member of the arab league to recognize Israel. My country’s security is not threatened by any other country arab or otherwise, it is threatened by radicals that have been radicalized in the cauldron of the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/556 "2011-06-10T05:02:53Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Open to the idea of temporary statehood and UN status so they can destroy the Jewish state? > > Yeah. I’ve heard. :rolleyes: They don’t recognize Israel as a _Jewish_ state. They recognize it a a _temporary government_ that should be eradicated so they can replace it with some perverted version of Islam. I thought they said they were open to leaving it to referendum. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/557 "2011-06-10T05:04:02Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Do you know what a ‘nation’ is? 😕 There was no ‘nation’ of Palestine. You do know that you don’t need a preexisting nation to steal one for yourself right?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/558 "2011-06-10T05:04:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In 10 years Hamas may be irrelevant if Palestinians don’t feel as aggrieved as they do today. Have you read recent Hamas positions on the state of Israel? They seem open to the idea. > [@](#): > > Here is the Hamas position (as a political party) on the question of the state of israel: > > “The question of recognizing Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people.This was a major shift away from their 1988 charter” Oh good Lord. You really don’t know much about Hamas do you. I’m actually genuinely embarrassed for you. I’ve kept waiting for you to reveal who was behind the creation of Hamas and responsible for it’s growth yet you’ve repeatedly failed to do so despite the fact that it would be a much stronger argument then anything you’ve provided so far. You’ve claimed that you care about this issue and that you’re not just trying to look like you care. Fair enough, the presumably you’ll know what I’m referring to when I utter a phrase who’s implication that any 12 year old Palestinian would understand. KING DAVID DOES NOT TAKE ORDERS FROM JEWS! What am I referring to? If you know the answer you’ll be able to make a far more damning case that Israel has been guilty of hypocrisy than anything you’ve done so far. If not, well, you’ll have failed to dispel the notion that you’re a dilettante who only expresses opinions on the conflict because you think it makes you look like you care about the Palestinians or their cause. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/559 "2011-06-10T05:07:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You do know that you don’t need a preexisting nation to steal one for yourself right?😕 Ok, please tell me what was Palestine, what is a Palestinian and when did they come into existence? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/560 "2011-06-10T05:08:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Where did modern Islamic anti-semitism come from? Was it there in 1850? Or did it start after it became apparent that Jews wanted to create a state in Palestine? It has been in existence since the creation of Islam (see: Qu’ran) though not as widespread. It’s amazing what media can do! Someone reports that the IAF is aiming at Red Cross ambulances with missiles, and it goes viral! [By the time the story is debunked, no one cares](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/111168). > [@](#): > > What exactly so we need Israel for? How exactly are they helping us? I’ve addressed the relationship we have with Israel many times - one that includes technology, medicine, intelligence, defense systems, trade (including weapons//cough//) and support. We wouldn’t be as powerful without Israel. Or potentially could (it’s hard to say what happens if certain people had not been born/given opportunities/had incentives/etc.) but at a much greater cost. Israel is a scientific pillar of the world. Also…Israel supports American foreign policy. Haven’t you noticed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=29)