# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/561 "2011-06-10T05:09:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > WTF are you talking about? I am pointing out that Shodan’s philosophy leaves no room for peace short of killing your enemy. Not really. But you said **you** [he] should just commit genocide. So I was wondering what you meant by the ‘you’. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/562 "2011-06-10T05:10:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not Jewish. Not even by the Nuremberg Racial laws. That said, thanks for confirming how you assume anyone who has a position on Israel you disagree with must be Jewish. I can only assume at this point that English is not your native language. I don’t think anyone would have read “you” as meaning “you personally, Ibn Warraq are a Jew” But please respond to my question: What are you talking about? When have I said I can predict your political beliefs based on your Jewishness? > [@](#): > > Your comment is completely inarticulate. No offense but I think the problem might be on your end. > [@](#): > > Would you mind clarifying. When you say that I only give a shit when Jews are involved, THEN the most apparent implication of that statement that I only seem to give a shit when Jews are involved is that you think that anti-semitism is the source of my concern. > [@](#): > > BTW, earlier you seemed to argue that you felt that Jordan was illegally occupying the West Bank and East Jerusalem. > > Please explain why you think they were and give me some links to respectable people who feel Jordan was illegally occupying those areas. You asked for my opinion, not a fucking dissertation. You can ask me why but you seem to want me to provide cites FOR MY OPINION. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/563 "2011-06-10T05:11:24Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Why would anyone give up their government to a foreign one? Seriously? I don’t want to be governed by Buddhists. I rather like being able to vote. > Is this the same place that once outlawed gum-chewing and trial by jury? > > You’re under the impression that _democracy_ will lead to liberty. Hamas was democratically elected and they put gay people to death. For fuck’s sake. democracy beats the alternatives most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/564 "2011-06-10T05:11:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Where did modern Islamic anti-semitism come from? Was it there in 1850? Umm… yes. Aren’t you familiar with Middle Eastern history? Under Islamic rule Jews were required to wear special clothing marking them as Jews, forbidden to ride horses(only being allowed to ride donkeys), prohibited from using regular saddles(only being allowed to use side saddles the way females did), forbidden from testifying against Muslims in court, and obligated to pay special taxes. Isn’t all that a clear case of anti-Semitism? If not, please explain your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/565 "2011-06-10T05:14:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And when was the last time an arab country invaded Israel? There is currently an offer by every member of the arab league to recognize Israel. Nah, they just send in rockets over the border and homicidal maniacs into major population centers. :dubious: So you think that because no one is rolling in with tanks (btw, when WAS the last time ANY strong military nation was invaded?), Israel is secure? Why do we have anti-terrorism measures in the west, then? I mean, can’t we just, you know, blow shit up? All the nukes in the world doesn’t stop someone from blowing themselves up on a bus or in a university cafeteria. > [@](#): > > My country’s security is not threatened by any other country arab or otherwise, it is threatened by radicals that have been radicalized in the cauldron of the middle east. Where do you live, exactly? I live in the U.S. Because while Iran isn’t Arab, it is Muslim. Saudi Arabia is our buddy re: oil & power. Iraq is not our friend. Who threatens your country? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/566 "2011-06-10T05:21:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Oh good Lord. You really don’t know much about Hamas do you. > > I’m actually genuinely embarrassed for you. > > I’ve kept waiting for you to reveal who was behind the creation of Hamas and responsible for it’s growth yet you’ve repeatedly failed to do so despite the fact that it would be a much stronger argument then anything you’ve provided so far. So Israel may have played a role in the creation of Hamas as a foil to the PLO, does that make negate Israel’s arguments regarding Hamas, they are not Hamas’s creature any more than Saddam Hussein and the Taliban were ours. > [@](#): > > You’ve claimed that you care about this issue and that you’re not just trying to look like you care. > > Fair enough, the presumably you’ll know what I’m referring to when I utter a phrase who’s implication that any 12 year old Palestinian would understand. > > KING DAVID DOES NOT TAKE ORDERS FROM JEWS! > > What am I referring to? > > If you know the answer you’ll be able to make a far more damning case that Israel has been guilty of hypocrisy than anything you’ve done so far. WTF are you talking about? This is the second time you have posted that phrase in recent memory as some sort of test to see if people are worthy of having opinions on this topic. I would guess it has something to do with the King David hotel where the Brits were but I don’t see how its fucking relevant that I know that or not. Yeah I know that Israel has terrorism in its past but the excuse that I have always heard has been that the King David hotel was not a civilian target. > [@](#): > > If not, well, you’ll have failed to dispel the notion that you’re a dilettante who only expresses opinions on the conflict because you think it makes you look like you care about the Palestinians or their cause. Meanwhile you look very pretentious when you do things like insist people become experts on a topic before they engage in debates. I will be the first to admit that I am not an expert on the middle east but I know people who are experts their opinion is close to mine despite your protests that “well if you only knew the facts (which you obviously don’t because you don’t know what a hashemite is), you would agree with me” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/567 "2011-06-10T05:21:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I can only assume at this point that English is not your native language. I don’t think anyone would have read “you” as meaning “you personally, Ibn Warraq are a Jew”. I really hope you’re not trying to attack me for being born outside the US. I merely mention this since you’ve made it clear you have no problem with Germany denying citizenship to Muslims born inside of Germany. > [@](#): > > But please respond to my question: > > What are you talking about? When have I said I can predict your political beliefs based on your Jewishness? Even though you’ve refused to respond to mine, I’ll be happy to. When you insisted that Madeline Albright and Henry Kissinger couldn’t possibly have been sympathetic to the causes of Arabs because they were Jewish(Albright wasn’t but you have odd ideas of what constitutes being a Jew). > [@](#): > > You asked for my opinion, not a fucking dissertation. You can ask me why but you seem to want me to provide cites FOR MY OPINION. I wasn’t asking for “cites”, just an explanation as to why you felt the way you did. Your opinion seems dramatically different than most. I’m unaware of similar claims against King Abdullah or King Hussein. Please explain your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/568 "2011-06-10T05:24:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I will be the first to admit that I am not an expert on the middle east but I know people who are experts their opinion is close to mine despite your protests that “well if you only knew the facts (which you obviously don’t because you don’t know what a hashemite is), you would agree with me” Ok, who are those people and what are their credentials? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/569 "2011-06-10T05:28:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, please tell me what was Palestine, what is a Palestinian and when did they come into existence? Palestine was part of the Ottoman empire that was carved off and put into the hands of the Brits after WWI. I’m not sure what your point is with your second question. If you have a point to make, then make it, if you have facts you would like to share, then share them, I don’t really feel like playing trivial pursuit ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/570 "2011-06-10T05:28:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Oh good Lord. You really don’t know much about Hamas do you. > > I’m actually genuinely embarrassed for you. > > I’ve kept waiting for you to reveal who was behind the creation of Hamas and responsible for it’s growth yet you’ve repeatedly failed to do so despite the fact that it would be a much stronger argument then anything you’ve provided so far. > > You’ve claimed that you care about this issue and that you’re not just trying to look like you care. > > Fair enough, the presumably you’ll know what I’m referring to when I utter a phrase who’s implication that any 12 year old Palestinian would understand. > > KING DAVID DOES NOT TAKE ORDERS FROM JEWS! > > What am I referring to? > > If you know the answer you’ll be able to make a far more damning case that Israel has been guilty of hypocrisy than anything you’ve done so far. > > If not, well, you’ll have failed to dispel the notion that you’re a dilettante who only expresses opinions on the conflict because you think it makes you look like you care about the Palestinians or their cause. I’m actually surprised that one hasn’t come up. I mentioned in this thread or another that I’d be more likely to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Arafat’s PLO if they hit military or government targets - or later, if they actually arrested terrorists. I also think that Israel should also respond to any party willing to negotiate. The militant Hamas is not an option. A diplomatic Fayyad is, but he’s kind of neutered. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/571 "2011-06-10T05:29:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I would guess it has something to do with the King David hotel where the Brits were but I don’t see how its fucking relevant that I know that or not. Yeah I know that Israel has terrorism in its past but the excuse that I have always heard has been that the King David hotel was not a civilian target. Claiming that the King David Hotel wasn’t a civilian target just because of the British intelligence facilities set up there is utterly moronic. You might as well argue that when the IRA blew up pubs they weren’t hitting civilian targets because they weren’t after pubs which catered to off-duty soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/572 "2011-06-10T05:31:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Palestine was part of the Ottoman empire that was carved off and put into the hands of the Brits after WWI. > > I’m not sure what your point is with your second question. If you have a point to make, then make it, if you have facts you would like to share, then share them, I don’t really feel like playing trivial pursuit I think the point is that there was no Palestinian nationality or government in 1948. There were interested Arab parties outside of Palestine that wanted to control the land, though. The Jews had a government, a national movement, a military, hospitals, schools, a national language, diplomats… You get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/573 "2011-06-10T05:34:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Palestine was part of the Ottoman empire that was carved off and put into the hands of the Brits after WWI. > > I’m not sure what your point is with your second question. If you have a point to make, then make it, if you have facts you would like to share, then share them, I don’t really feel like playing trivial pursuit You do realize the leaders of the Palestinian Arabs under the British rule were claiming they should be joined with Syria rather than being granted independent rule don’t you? Also, you’ve failed to say when Palestinian national consciousness came about or give the land area that you think constituted Palestine. Would you mind answering those fairly reasonable questions? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/574 "2011-06-10T05:36:13Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It has been in existence since the creation of Islam (see: Qu’ran) though not as widespread. and you don’t see any difference between islamic anti-semitism from 200 yearas go and the islamic anti-semitism today? REALLY? > [@](#): > > I’ve addressed the relationship we have with Israel many times - one that includes technology, medicine, intelligence, defense systems, trade (including weapons//cough//) and support. That is why we give them billions of dollars every year and stick up for you? Pfft. > [@](#): > > We wouldn’t be as powerful without Israel. Or potentially could (it’s hard to say what happens if certain people had not been born/given opportunities/had incentives/etc.) but at a much greater cost. Israel is a scientific pillar of the world. If weare gonna play alternate realities. We might not have the islamic terrorism we have today if Israel was located somewhere else. But its not. In what way does being Israel’s ally make us more powerful in any way that our 12 superaircraft carriers and trillion dollar military does not? > [@](#): > > Also…Israel supports American foreign policy. Haven’t you noticed? Really? Cuz our middle east policy is a peace deal based on 1967 borders and I haven’t heard much support from Israel for that recently. BTW in what way does Israel support our foreign policy? How many divisions of the IDF are in Afghanistan and Iraq right now? Are they providing support in Libya? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/575 "2011-06-10T05:38:20Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Not really. > > But you said **you** [he] should just commit genocide. So I was wondering what you meant by the ‘you’. BY “you” I meant that if one believe what Shodan believes (that your enemies are basically incorrigible) then one is left with little option other than simply killing your enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/576 "2011-06-10T05:39:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Umm… yes. > > Aren’t you familiar with Middle Eastern history? > > Under Islamic rule Jews were required to wear special clothing marking them as Jews, forbidden to ride horses(only being allowed to ride donkeys), prohibited from using regular saddles(only being allowed to use side saddles the way females did), forbidden from testifying against Muslims in court, and obligated to pay special taxes. > > Isn’t all that a clear case of anti-Semitism? > > If not, please explain your reasoning. And you think this is the same type of anti-semitism as what we see today. That it comes from the same place? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/577 "2011-06-10T05:39:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Claiming that the King David Hotel wasn’t a civilian target just because of the British intelligence facilities set up there is utterly moronic. > > You might as well argue that when the IRA blew up pubs they weren’t hitting civilian targets because they weren’t after pubs which catered to off-duty soldiers. Did the IRA warn them beforehand? The King David Hotel served as an office and it wasn’t an indiscriminate bombing designed to kill as many British as possible on the basis that they were British…nor was it condoned by worldwide Jewry. Then again, Jews are always depicted as helpless angels when they’re under attack. The Jewish Resistance Movements of Poland and Germany (and Beilski of Belarus) were militants intent on destroying as much as the opposition as they could. Fuck yeah they blew up shit. Kind of like how people act in wartime, no? I’m not a pacifist and I don’t claim that all acts of war as evil. I do think, however, that purposeful indiscriminate killing of civilians _when there are other options_ is a shade outside the so-called rules of war. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/578 "2011-06-10T05:43:57Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Nah, they just send in rockets over the border and homicidal maniacs into major population centers. :dubious: So you think that because no one is rolling in with tanks (btw, when WAS the last time ANY strong military nation was invaded?), Israel is secure? We invaded Iraq. There is an offer on the table from teh arab league. Israel has chosen to ignore it for about a decade. > [@](#): > > Why do we have anti-terrorism measures in the west, then? I mean, can’t we just, you know, blow shit up? > > All the nukes in the world doesn’t stop someone from blowing themselves up on a bus or in a university cafeteria. You were blaming the arab nation not terrorists. > [@](#): > > Where do you live, exactly? I live in the U.S. > > Because while Iran isn’t Arab, it is Muslim. Saudi Arabia is our buddy re: oil & power. Iraq is not our friend. > > Who threatens your country? I live in the US and frankly there is no country in the world that poses a military threat to the USA. But we do seem concerned about radicalized muslims coming from the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/579 "2011-06-10T05:51:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I really hope you’re not trying to attack me for being born outside the US. I merely mention this since you’ve made it clear you have no problem with Germany denying citizenship to Muslims born inside of Germany. cite. I’m pretty sure I said “Fuck them too.” And no I wasn’t born in the USA either, I was just trying to understand the cause of confusion and if you weren’t born here then some of the confusion makes more sense. > [@](#): > > Even though you’ve refused to respond to mine, You have GOT to be kidding. Every third post is like a pop quiz and the other two is a reminder that your pop quiz hasn’t been answered. > [@](#): > > I’ll be happy to. When you insisted that Madeline Albright and Henry Kissinger couldn’t possibly have been sympathetic to the causes of Arabs because they were Jewish(Albright wasn’t but you have odd ideas of what constitutes being a Jew). Well, I don’t believe that being Jewish automatically makes you a Zionist. I didn’t mean to imply that was the case. I know plenty of Jews that are not really happy with what Israel is doing. > [@](#): > > Please explain your reasoning. I was under the impression that there was arab objection to what Jordan was doing at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/580 "2011-06-10T05:55:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, who are those people and what are their credentials? Mostly diplomats. Used to be UN diplomats when i lived in NYC, now I’m in DC so its people from embassies. 1967 seems to be the assumed starting point for the two state solution amongst diplomats from several countries [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=30)