# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/41 "2011-05-20T04:50:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > As Jeffrey Goldberg points out, the President calling for an independent Palestinian State “based on 1967 borders” is nothing new. > > Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Ehud Barak all advocated for it. > > Also the ADL issued a statement praising the speech. > [http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/nothing-new-in-the-idea-that-67-borders-should-guide-peace-talks-updated/239162/](http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/nothing-new-in-the-idea-that-67-borders-should-guide-peace-talks-updated/239162/) I wouldn’t use the word “advocated”. Netanyahu has referred back to Bush’s 2004 commitment and acknowledgment that the 1967 borders were not dependable. [2004 letter](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Reference+Documents/Exchange+of+letters+Sharon-Bush+14-Apr-2004.htm): As part of a final peace settlement, Israel must have secure and recognized borders, which should emerge from negotiations between the parties in accordance with UNSC Resolutions 242 and 338. In light of new realities on the ground, including already existing major Israeli populations centers, it is unrealistic to expect that the outcome of final status negotiations will be a full and complete return to the armistice lines of 1949, and all previous efforts to negotiate a two-state solution have reached the same conclusion. It is realistic to expect that any final status agreement will only be achieved on the basis of mutually agreed changes that reflect these realities. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/42 "2011-05-20T04:50:52Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I came online to start a thread asking why Biny is upset. Seemed like more-or-less the same plan the Israelis offered a few years ago. I have got to stop reading [the Israel National News.](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/144338) > > Making peace is a risk. Not making peace is more of a risk. Bibi is upset because a foreign government is declaring their right his foreign policy. This is probably the #1 complaint that Israelis have about the U.S., but especially for Obama. If El Jefe had been a little more nuanced and not so arrogant, that would’ve been helpful. Obama just outlined for the world his preconditions. He placed the blame & responsibility on _Israel_ to meet Palestinian demands instead of demanding the two sides to come together and talk. Furthermore, he more or less recognized the legitimacy of the Super Terrorist Hamas and Weaker Terrorist Fatah union. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/43 "2011-05-20T04:59:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I wouldn’t use the word “advocated”. > > Netanyahu has referred back to Bush’s 2004 commitment and acknowledgment that the 1967 borders were not dependable. > > [2004 letter](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Reference+Documents/Exchange+of+letters+Sharon-Bush+14-Apr-2004.htm): > > As part of a final peace settlement, Israel must have secure and recognized borders, which should emerge from negotiations between the parties in accordance with UNSC Resolutions 242 and 338. In light of new realities on the ground, including already existing major Israeli populations centers, it is unrealistic to expect that the outcome of final status negotiations will be a full and complete return to the armistice lines of 1949, and all previous efforts to negotiate a two-state solution have reached the same conclusion.\*\* It is realistic to expect that any final status agreement will only be achieved on the basis of mutually agreed changes that reflect these realities.\*\* There was an op-ed in the U.S. somewhere that said it would’ve been nice if Obama had a letter - since after the re-election, he doesn’t have to waffle anymore. There was an op-ed today in the NYT by the MP that said if the PLO thinks it can go unilateral, so can Israel. _sigh_ Let’s see what Friday brings… Bibi is actually acting a lot like Sharon right now. Ironic. But he has always been a serious politician. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/44 "2011-05-20T05:02:33Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Well, that’s the danger of course–the surviving Neo-Gazans will have undergone some Nietzschean transformation, and a generation after we seal them up they’ll bust out, conquer the world, and force us all to convert to strict Judislamism. So, you’re thinking the Judislamists will defeat the Islaudists? 😃 CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/45 "2011-05-20T05:04:14Z")
Is there any reason to think this speech will mean absolutely nothing tomorrow? I mean, really, so what if Obama says “x”? The Israelis aren’t going to agree to anything they don’t figure out on their own is in their best interest. The Palestinians aren’t gong to do anything different either. Or am I missing something…? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/46 "2011-05-20T05:11:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If enough people, like several in this thread who apparently have no alternatives to offer, say “It will never work”, then it won’t. The problem is to \*make \*something work. Obama, like most of his predecessors, is saying he’s willing to try. There have been alternatives. Bibi has said so. He just won’t do anything on _Obama’s_ conditions. Bibi & Obama aren’t exactly bffs. 😕 Most Israelis aren’t opposed to 67-like borders that still ensure security. But Obama is giving Abbas new talking points. :rolleyes: I don’t think that President Obama (er, I hope) will throw Israel under the bus here. But this is a guy who’s shown us he’s more concerned about his legacy and being right than actually _doing_ what is right.\* I say this as a true blue loyal Democrat. ☹ before I get the Zionist bias criticism, I should note that I’ve objected his domestic policies re: healthcare (sellout), bailout (pandering), education (ignorance). ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/47 "2011-05-20T05:13:10Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Bibi is upset because a foreign government is declaring their right his foreign policy. This is probably the #1 complaint that Israelis have about the U.S., but especially for Obama. > > If El Jefe had been a little more nuanced and not so arrogant, that would’ve been helpful. Yeah, well, that is the fate of client states. They rely on other people’s money, they have to listen to other people’s ideas. So you’re saying you have less problem with Obama’s ideas than with Obama himself? OK, but that is sort of another topic, isn’t it? > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Obama just outlined for the world his preconditions. He placed the blame & responsibility on _Israel_ to meet Palestinian demands instead of demanding the two sides to come together and talk. Furthermore, he more or less recognized the legitimacy of the Super Terrorist Hamas and Weaker Terrorist Fatah union. Really? Which speech were you watching? Please provide a cite. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/48 "2011-05-20T05:22:29Z")
I’m willing to bet that Israeli pollsters have been burning up the telephone lines since Obama’s speech last night; the results will probably be in this morning’s papers. The results will be telling. Israeli politicians are just like American politicians: nothing you can threaten then with can be worse than the threat to their re-election. If the polls are in favor of Obama’s plan, you’ll see some other progress, if not, you’ll see zilch. Personally, I’m not optimistic - Bibi’s administration may not be that popular, but Obama has done little to win over the Israeli public. We’re talking about a man who’s visited Egypt, Turkey, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, but won’t consider visiting the only country around here that actually likes America. You may not think that means much, but to Israelis, all politics are personal. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/49 "2011-05-20T05:29:03Z")
I am reading the morning Israeli papers. The reports are firmly against and seem to be twisting the president’s words. Like I said, darn shame. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/50 "2011-05-20T05:29:10Z")
OK, so what _is_ the best-case scenario for Israel? Ultimately, there’s going to have to be either a one-state solution, or a two-state solution. If Israel doesn’t want a two-state solution because that would leave their borders vulnerable, and they don’t want a one-state solution because that would put Jews in the minority, then what _do_ they want? What else is left? ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/51 "2011-05-20T05:30:27Z")
Bravo! For having the balls to call out the occupiers. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/52 "2011-05-20T05:36:14Z")
For many Israelis, the _Status quo_ is just ducky. But of course change is the one thing we cannot stop. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/53 "2011-05-20T05:49:17Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Yeah, well, that is the fate of client states. They rely on other people’s money, they have to listen to other people’s ideas. So you’re saying you have less problem with Obama’s ideas than with Obama himself? > > OK, but that is sort of another topic, isn’t it? I stopped liking him sometime around 2006. :dubious: But it is ridiculous to think that the U.S. is just Israel’s Godfather. So much for Westphalia. > [@](#): > > Really? Which speech were you watching? Please provide a cite. Thanks. Uh, same as [you](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/05/19/MNME1JIE3C.DTL)? Abbas has already aligned with Hamas, saying he didn’t care about Israel and U.S. support _and_ moved away from the negotiating table. For Obama to outline conditions in the same speech that praises self-determination movements elsewhere - those movements that are **nothing** like Hamas and the PLO - is a slap in the face to every Israeli that has been subject to terrorist acts. The whole [speech](http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/05/19/full_text_of_obamas_middle_east_speech) was about independence and revolution. > [@](#): > > Prosperity also requires tearing down walls that stand in the way of progress – the corruption of elites who steal from their people; the red tape that stops an idea from becoming a business; the patronage that distributes wealth based on tribe or sect. We will help governments meet international obligations, and invest efforts anti-corruption; by working with parliamentarians who are developing reforms, and activists who use technology to hold government accountable. > > Let me conclude by talking about another cornerstone of our approach to the region, and that relates to the pursuit of peace. > > For decades, the conflict between Israelis and Arabs has cast a shadow over the region. For Israelis, it has meant living with the fear that their children could get blown up on a bus or by rockets fired at their homes, as well as the pain of knowing that other children in the region are taught to hate them. For Palestinians, it has meant suffering the humiliation of occupation, and never living in a nation of their own. Moreover, this conflict has come with a larger cost the Middle East, as it impedes partnerships that could bring greater security, prosperity, and empowerment to ordinary people. > > My Administration has worked with the parties and the international community for over two years to end this conflict, yet expectations have gone unmet. Israeli settlement activity continues. Palestinians have walked away from talks. The world looks at a conflict that has grinded on for decades, and sees a stalemate. Indeed, there are those who argue that with all the change and uncertainty in the region, it is simply not possible to move forward. I saw a weak slap on the wrist for suicide bombers…President Obama voted for sovereignty before he voted against it. I am _not_ suggesting that the U.S. (or any country) shouldn’t use its relative power. But I _am_ saying that Obama’s actions have not been seen as Israeli-friendly in the least, nor was keeping Israel’s PM in the dark about his speech helpful. > [@](#): > > Ultimately,\*\* it is up to Israelis and Palestinians to take action. No peace can be imposed upon them\*\*, nor can endless delay make the problem go away. - snippero \* > [@](#): > > So while the core issues of the conflict must be negotiated, **the basis of those negotiations is clear** : Wait, didn’t you just…? > [@](#): > > a viable Palestine, and a secure Israel. The United States believes that negotiations should result in two states, with permanent Palestinian borders with Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, and permanent Israeli borders with Palestine. Okay. That’s in line with what most people think. > [@](#): > > The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines Oh now that’s wide-open for interpretation, and not in a conductive peace process kind of way. > [@](#): > > with mutually agreed swaps, (the drone of the jaw drops was deafening) > [@](#): > > so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states. The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves, and reach their potential, in a sovereign Does this mean Hamas is legitimate? > [@](#): > > and contiguous state. …did he just suggest that Israel cede part of the Negev or something? Doubt it. But what does that mean? And who the hell in Israel elected Obama to be their leader? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/54 "2011-05-20T06:13:44Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I am reading the morning Israeli papers. The reports are firmly against and seem to be twisting the president’s words. Like I said, darn shame. Word of advice: don’t read the Jerusalem Post. It caters to the American immigrant community in Israel, a sector noticeably more right-wing and frankly, more crazy than mainstream Israeli society. [Here’s an op-ed](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4071431,00.html) from an actual respected newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/55 "2011-05-20T06:19:06Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I am reading the morning Israeli papers. The reports are firmly against and seem to be twisting the president’s words. Like I said, darn shame. Oh, no! The Babushkas from the farmlands of Russia have a divine right to occupy the land of other people, and they want to keep killing and stealing land forever, so now they’re dissatisfied with Obama! The horror! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/56 "2011-05-20T06:23:03Z")
לך תזדיין. Pardon my Russian. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/57 "2011-05-20T06:25:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > לך תזדיין. > > Pardon my Russian. There’s enough US and European w_ **e t** _h that also believe in the same divine right to kill and occupy foreign lands. Don’t you worry about it. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/58 "2011-05-20T06:37:48Z")
More posturing by the messiah. Obama made the speech to show the palestinians that he is working “for them”. The speech also riles up the israelis-which allows them to be properly outraged. Absolutely nothing to see here, move on. As long as the money keeps flowing from the US taxpayers, nothing changes. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/59 "2011-05-20T06:42:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, so what _is_ the best-case scenario for Israel? Go claim a stake in the Sahara somewhere, and stop killing people and stealing their land. I’d gladly give them a sizable part of Texas, or some other Southern US State. Israel has a right to exist. No doubt about that. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/60 "2011-05-20T06:51:45Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Go claim a stake in the Sahara somewhere, and stop killing people and stealing their land. > > I’d gladly give them a sizable part of Texas, or some other Southern US State. > > Israel has a right to exist. No doubt about that. I have to say, your attitude is not very conductive for a peaceful resolution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=4)