# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/121 "2011-05-20T17:16:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > George W. Bush was elected democratically. This is debateable. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/122 "2011-05-20T17:21:31Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Yeah, I guess keeping the Palestinians in a huge cage will do for now. :rolleyes: The Palestinians are free to go to any country that is willing to accept them (and many have - there are Palestinians throughout Europe and North America). Israel isnā€™t stopping them from leaving. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/123 "2011-05-20T17:21:34Z")
I seriously wonder how important this speech is and whether the US itself is gradually becoming irrelevant in the ME. That seems to be the calculation of Abbas and the PA: that the US will never put serious pressure on Israel and therefore that their best hope is to bypass the US-led peace process for the time being and take their case straight to the General Assembly and the wider international community. They appear to believe that presenting a united front with Hamas is more important as of now than keeping the Americans happy. In the long run their strategy would be to delegitimize Israel unless it is willing to stop settlements and negotiate a serious two-state solution. I donā€™t blame Obama. Between the Israel lobby and the conservative zealots there is not a whole lot of room for maneuver in US domestic politics on the issue of Israel. He made a serious effort with Israel on the settlements issue; it didnā€™t work and the US is slowly becoming irrelevant in the region. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/124 "2011-05-20T17:28:56Z")
Well, Netanyahu has made dismissive statements before about how the US will do whatever he wants us to. Weā€™ve never given him any reason to think heā€™s wrong. I donā€™t know why Obama would put up with Bibi having a tantrum over the phone at him, though. Bibiā€™s awfully imperious towards us for someone who always has his hand out for American cash. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/125 "2011-05-20T20:06:15Z")
Itā€™s always hilarious to watch people make themselves look foolish by comparing Likudā€™s attitude towards Arabs with the way Hamas views Jews. There are of course Likud MKs(member of the Knesset) who are Arabs and significant numbers of Israeli Arabs vote for Likud. Perhaps people can point me towards Hamas leaders who are Jewish, but I doubt it. That said, if those critics of Israel who make such comments were actually familiar with Likudā€™s origins theyā€™d actually be able to make such an argument(hint: King David doesnā€™t take orders from Jews, any Palestinian would get the reference) but then theyā€™d actually have to care about the Palestinians and their cause instead of merely trying to score points on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/126 "2011-05-20T20:11:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Well, Netanyahu has made dismissive statements before about how the US will do whatever he wants us to. Weā€™ve never given him any reason to think heā€™s wrong. The last Israeli PM who got into a pissing contest was Yitzhak Shamir and he got thrown out on his ass because of it. No one will ever admit it, but the number one job of every Israeli PM is to maintain a good relationship with the US. They eventually try and jettison for India or China, since they existed for a generation before allying themselves with us but I doubt thatā€™ll happen anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/127 "2011-05-20T20:11:59Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > How about a one state solution by giving all the Palsestinians Israeli citizenship (after appropriate royalty oaths) and incorporating Palestine into Israel? I suppose its naive but itā€™ll remove such problems as Jewish settlers in the West Bank. At any rate, Israel should at a minimum keep all of Jerusalem. Israel would lose majority Jewish character with one state solution. Why should Israel get all of jerusalem? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/128 "2011-05-20T20:14:44Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > Well, as I remember reading in my History classes, we (the West), came to Palestine, where Jews and Arabs were fighting, as they had been since before the time of Jesus. What we did was we took the side of the Jews, and said to the Palestinians, ā€œThe Jews will have a sovereign State, whether you like it or not.ā€ And, of course, they did _not_ like it. Not one bit. Look up aliyah and balfour declaration. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/129 "2011-05-20T20:21:10Z")
All I hear from American politicians is MMMPH, MWAMWA, MMMMPH, because theyā€™ve got AIPACs dick in their mouths. At the same time, the Palestinians are notably and corruptly unhelpful. I donā€™t have a solution, other than we should wash our hands of all this ridiculous bullshit. Fuck all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/130 "2011-05-20T20:22:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Word of advice: donā€™t read the Jerusalem Post. It caters to the American immigrant community in Israel, a sector noticeably more right-wing and frankly, more crazy than mainstream Israeli society. > > [Hereā€™s an op-ed](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4071431,00.html) from an actual respected newspaper. ā€œThere are elements and camps out there that for two years now have been trying to portray Obama as an Israel-hater who curries favor with the Arabs while disguising his communist tendencies.ā€ Are these elements in Israel or is he talking about the Republican party here in the states? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/131 "2011-05-20T20:28:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is nothing new in the speech re Israel/Palestine, it is just reaffermation of previous positions. > > What is sorta new, at least for Israel, is Bibiā€™s rejectionist stance. There can be no peace progress with Bibi in charge, since heā€™ll just find ways to reject everything. I donā€™t think Bibi has rejected anything except the notion that it was somehow fair to give Israel preconditions to peace while glossing over Hamas & PLO terrorists. I have read headlines (like Reuters) that say he ā€œrejects a Palestinian stateā€ and such, but when I read _his_ comments, I donā€™t see that at all. It would seem that, given the chance, Bibi is quite likely to give up some settlement outpostsā€¦but Obamaā€™s wording was of poor choice and incredibly disrespectful. It is the matter of Jerusalem and some of the settlement blocks that are of security concern. Another issue (at least thatā€™s what Iā€™ve heard from my Israeli friends but Iā€™m not sure how much this plays out in local politics) are holy cites. There are some under Palestinian control that have been totally desecrated. There are others that Israelis have more control ofā€¦so I can see that being an issue. Maybe. I think there are some kibbutzim near the Jordan that are small and relatively successful. That one is gonna hurt. I donā€™t see towns like Ariel ever being disbanded, though. That would be part of the ā€˜land exchangeā€™. I would have never voted for Likud had I lived in Israelā€¦but Iā€™m glad that Labor has been disbanded and reworked. imho, Kadima really had a lot of promise. > [@Sitnam](#): > > Oh, taken that Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid totaling $3 billion a year what are we getting for our money? Heck if I know. What are we getting from the $$ we give to the U.N.? (How do you think Hamas gets funded?) Afghanistan? Egypt? Why is Obama promising cash to nations that push for democracy? > [@Lemur866](#): > > I know everyoneā€™s heard this a million times, but really, there are only a few options here. > > A long time ago back in 1967 a three state solution might have workedā€“hand Gaza back to Egypt, and the West Bank back to Jordan. Except Egypt and Jordan donā€™t want them and wonā€™t take them. So thatā€™s impossible. > > Continue the status quo? Howā€™s that working out? And suppose the Palestinians finally get a clue from the Arab Spring and start some nonviolent protests? > > Annex the West Bank? OK, that could happen. Except then you have to decide if the Palestinians are going to be citizens of Greater Israel, which means Israel is no longer a Jewish state, or you decide theyā€™re not citizens, which means Israel is no longer a democracy. > > And so, weā€™re left with a two state solution. And guess what, with a two state solution weā€™re left with something pretty close to the 1967 borders, with as the President so helpfully pointed out in the same sentence, mutually agreed upon swaps. > \*\* > Israel can be a Jewish state, it can be a democracy, and it can control the West Bank. It canā€™t do all three at the same time.\*\* Agreed. I donā€™t think it was the intention of Israel to have the West Bank for that long. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Another reason they have to go: Look how many Israeli settlements are right on the Jordan River. To be independent, Palestine must wield exclusive control over its side of its border with Jordan. Yeah. There are a couple that were there pre 48 and were disbanded and then rebuilt after 67. I feel extremely sympathetic right now. Well, to some of them. The frummy fucktards can learn how defend themselves. \>narrowed eyes\< > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > What a bullshit argument, Zionism, by its very definition, is against the existence of Palestine Cite your falsehood. > [@](#): > > (as it was known to Palestinians before 48), does that mean that any Israeli political party (I do believe political parties in Israel cant legally have an anti Zionist stance, correct me if Iā€™m wrong) should be permanently excluded from any possible peace talks? Why would a political party be included in peace talks? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why does Netanyahu keep saying the Green Line is not a defensible border between Israel and Palestine? It isnā€™t for Israel and Syria! And I donno; tell it to the kids who have had to sleep in bomb shelters at night. As far as I know, you canā€™t actually occupy and overthrow a nation without ground troops (a-bomb aside). A buffer zone sounds about right - the U.N. certainly canā€™t control one. > [@](#): > > Seems to me **any** border would be defensible, at least by the Israelis. It will be a long, long time before independent Palestine has an army that matters, compared to the IDF. Palestine isnā€™t the only problem. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/132 "2011-05-20T20:41:36Z")
Hah. I rarely read the WP and most certainly not Right Turn, but [this](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/congress-steps-up-to-cut-aid-to-hamas-fatah-unity-government/2011/03/29/AFqTU65G_blog.html) made me giggle: > [@](#): > > For reasons that have more to do with the **administrationā€™s aversion to drawing lines and its phobia about being at odds with the countries that populate the U.N**., the Obama administration has not yet publicly delivered a forthright message to the Palestinians. An email from a local group said: > [@](#): > > We were surprised and disappointed that President Obama has become the first President to define the 1967 borders as a point for negotiations. This approach ignores previous UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, the consensus of military experts that these borders are indefensible, and previous US commitments. We are also very disturbed he addressed this critical issue before his meeting with Prime Minister Netanyahu on Friday. However, we were pleased that he acknowledged the extremism and dangers of Hamas and that he noted that the Palestinians have walked away from the peace table. It was important that President Obama stated that he will not support the isolation and deligitimization of Israel or the unilateral declaration of a Palestinian State. The speaker for an event this group is hosting is a friend of mine _and_ a major commentator re: peace in the middle east. Heā€™s hardly an apologist, so I donā€™t think Bibiā€™s wrinkled nose is that surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/133 "2011-05-20T20:44:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This is the most significant part: > > With Hamas as part of the PA side, Obama simply could not plausibly cram a deal down Bibiā€™s throat, even if he wanted to - my point above. If Iā€™m Netanyahu I would very publicly and vigorously oppose anything Obama proposes. Either because I really oppose it or because Palestinians are more likely to accept a deal that looks like it has been shoved down my throat. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/134 "2011-05-20T20:57:22Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > If you read the Hamas Charter, it is obvious that the ā€œsolution to the Palestinan problemā€ Hamas advocates is not Palestinian statehood alone - it is the massacre of all Jews in the territory and the establishment of an Islamic state. > > This ainā€™t George Washingtons we are talking about. I think theyā€™d be OK with going back to the situation that existed during the Ottoman empire. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/135 "2011-05-20T21:08:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How about this for a swap? The Gaza Strip is evacuated. All Palestinians there go to the WB. All Israelis in the WB ā€“ even those between the Wall and the Green Line (but not those in East Jerusalem) ā€“ go to Gaza. The Strip currently supports a population of 1.6 million, so 300,000 Israelis wonā€™t be crowded there. Each side agrees to destroy no property before leaving (yeah, right). Palestine loses its sea access, but the problem of a country with two discontiguous parts and whether a land corridor is necessary is all mooted. In exchange, Palestine gets rid of all the settlers, and gets all territory up to the Green Line except for East Jerusalem and suburbs. Doable? Hmmā€¦are Palestinians going to pay for the nice homes, pools, schools, university & infrastructure? šŸ˜› > [@RedFury](#): > > What about the Charter of the Likud Party? > > ā€“ bolding mine. Which is why Likud wouldnā€™t get as much attention if the other parties had not fucked shit up (probably as much as Likud has). But Bibi has already [said](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Speeches+by+Israeli+leaders/2009/Address_PM_Netanyahu_Bar-Ilan_University_14-Jun-2009.htm) he supported a two state solution (as did Rabin, Barak & Sharon) and heā€™s been heavily criticized for it. > [@](#): > > Besides, Hamas has stated repeatedly that they ā€œ[accept the existence of Israel within the 1967 borders](http://www.google.com.do/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGLL_enDO390DO390&q=Hamas+accept+the+existence+of+Israel+within+the+1967+borders&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=).ā€ Did you notice the first hit here was electronic intafada? :dubious: Ironically, Hamas is on the State Deptā€™s terror watch list. [Hamas Will Never Recognize Israel](http://www.presstv.ir/detail/180321.html) I donā€™t believe the half assed Hamas apology. I wonder if theyā€™d immediately declare war on Israel after the last pullout. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/136 "2011-05-20T21:10:08Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > All I hear from American politicians is MMMPH, MWAMWA, MMMMPH, because theyā€™ve got AIPACs dick in their mouths. At the same time, the Palestinians are notably and corruptly unhelpful. I donā€™t have a solution, other than we should wash our hands of all this ridiculous bullshit. Fuck all of them. Yeah but we get our oil from that part of the world. If we ran our cars on high fructose corn syrup, weā€™d be about as concerned about injustice in the middle east as we are about injustice in Myanmar. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/137 "2011-05-20T21:15:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > First of all, Zionism isnā€™t \*against \*anything - itā€™s \*for \*a Jewish state. There is no consensus as to what the borders of that state is, and most Zionist wouldnā€™t have a problem with any Palestinian state existing outside those borders. Well, Likud does, apparently. And Netanyahu is Likud. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/138 "2011-05-20T21:18:41Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Hmmā€¦are Palestinians going to pay for the nice homes, pools, schools, university & infrastructure? šŸ˜› Nope! They get all that for free! (Assuming the settlers donā€™t trash it all before they leave.) But, they do have to absorb the cost of resettling 1.7 million Gazans in the WB, and mostly in settlements that supported 300,000 Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/139 "2011-05-20T21:23:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, Likud does, apparently. And Netanyahu is Likud. Only the the hardcore right wing of the Likud is against any Palestnian state in the west of the Jordan - the more moderate branch (and probably the majority) is willing to grudgingly accept some sort of demilitarized country in par of the West Bank. Donā€™t mistake the Likud for a far-right party, and donā€™t mistake them for a uniform block. Theyā€™re neither. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/140 "2011-05-20T21:30:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah but we get our oil from that part of the world. If we ran our cars on high fructose corn syrup, weā€™d be about as concerned about injustice in the middle east as we are about injustice in Myanmar. The marvel is the US runs a policy that is against interest; the reliable supply of petroleum products. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=8)