# Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500 "2011-05-19T20:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/161 "2011-05-21T03:30:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Israel defines Jewishness by race as much as by religion, and in neither case is maintaining a majority of any importance whatsoever. Who gives a shit if Israel isn’t majority Jewish in religion? I don’t see why everyone in the whole Palestinian region can’t just live as one state where race and religion are irrelevant. It works for America. The fear is that a majority of Palestinians would vote to suppress religious freedoms for the Jewish minority. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/162 "2011-05-21T03:40:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Israel defines Jewishness by race as much as by religion, Think you confused us with the Mormons of a few generations ago… > [@](#): > > and in neither case is maintaining a majority of any importance whatsoever. Who gives a shit if Israel isn’t majority Jewish in religion? Uh, Israelis? It was founded as a _Jewish_ state after centuries of persecution so that _Jewish_ people could have a place to freely move about. Apparently Israel is still needed. > [@](#): > > I don’t see why everyone in the whole Palestinian region can’t just live as one state where race and religion are irrelevant. Because not everyone is like you, **Dio.** Except - no wait - religion _does_ matter to you. It matters to you because you’re so bothered by it, as evidenced by your near-daily attacks on religion. > [@](#): > > It works for America. Race and religion matter here, no matter what your glossy eyed vision is. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/163 "2011-05-21T04:21:46Z")
[The Palestinian Archipelago](http://www.flickr.com/photos/59124558@N06/5738061983/sizes/l/in/photostream/) ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/164 "2011-05-21T04:28:44Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I forget, is The Dome of the Rock built on top of the Temple Mount or vice versa? > > Or have you decided there was a statute of limitations on occupiers? Along with the claimed divine purpose of indiscriminate killing of people and stealing their land, even the worship of stone structures is treated as a legitimate justification for massacre. In that case, claiming ownership of the sand in the Egyptian deserts would be more fitting, and appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/165 "2011-05-21T04:40:03Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > The fear is that a majority of Palestinians would vote to suppress religious freedoms for the Jewish minority. How could they do that if they have a Constitution? White South Africans had the same fear, by the way, and it was just as illegitimate for them. Why should any race have to punished and herded behind barbed wire fences for being in a majority. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/166 "2011-05-21T04:47:45Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Along with the claimed divine purpose of indiscriminate killing of people and stealing their land, even the worship of stone structures is treated as a legitimate justification for massacre. > > In that case, claiming ownership of the sand in the Egyptian deserts would be more fitting, and appropriate. I see you and the sane have no middle ground. Fair enough, I will not waste my time bridging the gap. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/167 "2011-05-21T04:49:48Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Think you confused us with the Mormons of a few generations ago… What is this “us” shit? According to you, you’re a converted Gentile, except you’re an atheist, so I don’t know what that “conversion” actually means. You’re evdiently (according to your own posts) neither an ethnic Jew nor a religious Jew, so why do you keep trying to act like you personally have some kind of history of oppression? My biological father is Jewish which makes me more Jewish than you are, so can the sanctimonious “we” shit, ok. > [@](#): > > Uh, Israelis? It was founded as a _Jewish_ state after centuries of persecution so that _Jewish_ people could have a place to freely move about. Apparently Israel is still needed. They can roam freely around most of the world, and they would not be made more unsafe by a one state solution. That’s a load of crap and always has been, > [@](#): > > Except - no wait - religion _does_ matter to you. It matters to you because you’re so bothered by it, as evidenced by your near-daily attacks on religion You’re confusing me with someone else. I do not attack religion, and yiou can’t cite a single example of me doing so. I send my kids to Catholic school, for fuck’s sake/ Just because I’m an atheist doesn’t mean I hate religion. I’m sick of that meme. I am all for religious freedom. I’d like to see some religious and racial equality in Israel. You would not. We can agree to diagree. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/168 "2011-05-21T04:54:59Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I forget, is The Dome of the Rock built on top of the Temple Mount or vice versa? It hasn’t been the Temple Mount for 2000 years. Those days are over. If you want to use that standard, then the Black Hills are “occupied land.” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/169 "2011-05-21T05:01:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What is this “us” shit? According to you, you’re a converted Gentile, except you’re an atheist, so I don’t know what that “conversion” actually means. You’re evdiently (according to your own posts) neither an ethnic Jew nor a religious Jew, so why do you keep trying to act like you personally have some kind of history of oppression? My biological father is Jewish which makes me more Jewish than you are, so can the sanctimonious “we” shit. How does the fact that your biological father was Jewish make you remotely Jewish, particularly since the fact that you refer to him as your “biological father” suggests that you weren’t or aren’t that close? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/170 "2011-05-21T05:03:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It hasn’t been the Temple Mount for 2000 years. Those days are over. If you want to use that standard, then the Black Hills are “occupied land.” How aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/171 "2011-05-21T05:12:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How does the fact that your biological father was Jewish make you remotely Jewish, particularly since the fact that you refer to him as your “biological father” suggests that you weren’t or aren’t that close? It was good enough for Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/172 "2011-05-21T05:13:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How aren’t they? Well, then, by all means, we should assist the Indians in driving the occupiers out, should we not? We need to draw new borders and carve out an independent state for them. Any white people living in the region should be deported. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/173 "2011-05-21T05:18:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It was good enough for Hitler. That’s not really an answer. Do you actually think of yourself as being Jewish? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/174 "2011-05-21T05:20:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How could they do that if they have a Constitution? A constitution does \*not \*secure democracy, freedom, or any such notion. > [@](#): > > White South Africans had the same fear, by the way, and it was just as illegitimate for them. Except they’re subject to racial prejudice under the ANC. > [@](#): > > Why should any race have to punished and herded behind barbed wire fences for being in a majority. So you oppose a two state solution? And what’s with your freaking obsession with race? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/175 "2011-05-21T05:22:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s not really an answer/ Actually, it is an answer because Israel offers the right of return to anyne who would have been killed by Hitler. That qualifies me as one those people who allegedly can’t walk around safe anywhere but downtown Tel Aviv. > [@](#): > > Do you actually think of yourself as being Jewish? No, but it doesn’t really matter what I think, it matters what antisemites think. If we were in Nazi Germany, I’d be in trouble, but **CitzenPained** would not be. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/176 "2011-05-21T05:26:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What is this “us” shit? According to you, you’re a converted Gentile, except you’re an atheist, so I don’t know what that “conversion” actually means. You’re evdiently (according to your own posts) neither an ethnic Jew nor a religious Jew, so why do you keep trying to act like you personally have some kind of history of oppression? My biological father is Jewish which makes me more Jewish than you are, so can the sanctimonious “we” shit, ok My biological mother was, and so was hers, and hers, and hers, and hers, and hers…I didn’t know that until I was older because people like you made my mom’s family ashamed of it. Since you are so obsessed with race, maybe I can show you a picture of her and you can start measuring her nose. You can make notes about her eye color, skin tone, and curly hair. Sorry you were confused. I’m also sorry you can’t grasp the meaning of an _atheist_ (although by your definitions I’m _agnostic_ and my kitchen table is _atheist_) who practices tenets of a _religion_, even though I think SD spent 11 pages to the subject a few weeks ago. > [@](#): > > You’re confusing me with someone else. I do not attack religion, and yiou can’t cite a single example of me doing so. I send my kids to Catholic school, for fuck’s sake/ Just because I’m an atheist doesn’t mean I hate religion. I’m sick of that meme. I am all for religious freedom. I’d like to see some religious and racial equality in Israel. You would not. We can agree to diagree. **Dio** not attacking religion? How many times have you called it silly, superstitious, bad, etc. etc. I know you send your children to Catholic school and like Christmas. That doesn’t mean you don’t have a fear of things that aren’t in jive with your beliefs. Again, what’s with the racial obsession? Why are you so hellbent on putting Jews and Arabs into racial categories? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/177 "2011-05-21T05:30:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Actually, it is an answer because Israel offers the right of return to anyne who would have been killed by Hitler. not true. > [@](#): > > If we were in Nazi Germany, I’d be in trouble, but **CitzenPained** would not be. Again not true. But if we were in Nazi Germany, I’d be a proud Jew and you’d just be a man without a country. 😉 edit: Or one who joined in the criticism of Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/178 "2011-05-21T05:34:13Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > My biological mother was, and so was hers, and hers, and hers, and hers, and hers…I didn’t know that until I was older because people like you made my mom’s family ashamed of it. Since you are so obsessed with race, maybe I can show you a picture of her and you can start measuring her nose. You can make notes about her eye color, skin tone, and curly hair. > > Sorry you were confused. I’m also sorry you can’t grasp the meaning of an _atheist_ (although by your definitions I’m _agnostic_ and my kitchen table is _atheist_) who practices tenets of a _religion_, even though I think SD spent 11 pages to the subject a few weeks ago. > > **Dio** not attacking religion? How many times have you called it silly, superstitious, bad, etc. etc. I know you send your children to Catholic school and like Christmas. That doesn’t mean you don’t have a fear of things that aren’t in jive with your beliefs. > > Again, what’s with the racial obsession? Why are you so hellbent on putting Jews and Arabs into racial categories? I was mistaken about your ethnic heritage, I remebered you saying you were a convert (od sorts, albeit an atheist one). I have never attacked religion, though. That is a falsehhod. Nor am I "obsessed with race. Disliking racism is not being “obsessed with race.” Sayiong that Palestinians are discriminated against because of their race is a comment on _racism_, not race. Once again, I have never attacked religion and you can’t cite an example of me doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/179 "2011-05-21T05:34:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How could they do that if they have a Constitution? Your comment doesn’t inspire confidence in your knowledge of Israel or understanding of the conflict. Israel doesn’t have a Constitution. However most of the other countries in the region do have constitutions yet none treat religious minorities with anything remotely resembling equality except perhaps(and it’s a huge perhaps) Lebanon, and I don’t think you’d be a fan of their Constitution if you were familiar with it or their solution to how to survive as a multu-ethnic/religious society. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500/180 "2011-05-21T05:35:24Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > not true. > Again not true. yes it is fucking true. > [@](#): > > edit: Or one who joined in the criticism of Jews. This is filth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-calls-for-independent-palestine-1967-borders/582500.md?page=10)