Yet I’m sure someone will come along in a few minutes and do just that. I hate Israel threads, so, so much special pleading.
Does anyone really expect us to believe that Netanyahu has done a little “I Can Change” number like thee Devil in the South Park movie and is now in the peace camp. Hispolitcal career has been pretty much defined my opposing any sort of peace deal with the Palestinians and whilst he now says he wants peace he’s done nothing more than make a few half-hearted gestures in order to try and deflect criticism.
:dubious: Seems to me the only relevant “changes that have taken place on the ground, demographic changes that have taken place over the past 44 years” are the settlements.
The dark purple are settlements, and it’s all over.
Click on it, you can zoom in.
And I’m sure they are guarded by IDF, my point is Netenyahu is arguing the '67 borders are a liability to Israeli security, however ongoing prolific settlement construction is not.
The military presence helps secure them (I believe you call it occupation) though they aren’t immune to rockets. That’s the point: withdrawing from WB means disbanding those settlements. I never objected to that and it doesn’t look like Netanyahu will either. It was easy for him to criticize Sharon when it was politically expedient. Now he’s in the same position.
I can’t help you if you don’t understand the difference between literal armistice line and around the line.
It was war. They won. It’s not odd to think they’re going to call some of the shots.
Sounds like you just made the case for a historical claim to Israel - for Jews. :dubious:
Few Palestinians can trace their family back to the land for generations and generations. In fact, ones who can are usually the Boudin, Druze, or some Jewish families in Jerusalem.
Whooop de do. People tied to the Levant share some similar genetic markers.
Eh? Seems to me that disbanding the settlements is exactly what Netanyahu objects to. Or, is he willing to disband some but not all? Has he made any statements on this?
Yes. He has. Thanks to Obama, he’s now in even a worse position to negotiate with his government. It is not like he’s the King of Israel or something. He has to exercise diplomacy with his Cabinet, the PA, the U.S., and probably his own (probably very dejected right now) religious convictions.
Funny how you hurl all the criticism at him when Abbas refused to negotiate during the settlement freeze. :rolleyes:
You seem hellbent on making it all Israel’s fault - no matter who is in charge.
On the issue of borders: Israel also houses thousands of illegal immigrants. They are refugees (mostly African) that come in through Egypt. Egypt and Israel have pretty unsecured borders, and with the regime change in Egypt, that could spell trouble.
Defensible borders are a legitimate concern right now. But so is the immediate need for two states. Hopefully the New Palestine will finally be held accountable. Terrorism will no longer be terrorism but acts of war.
Any good Palestinian Dopers you find are ones that probably never lived there, though some do have the internet…hmm…you can probably head over to electronic intafada.
My friend is ‘Palestinian’, but he usually refers himself as Jordanian unless we’re talking about Israel, and then he switches in jest ;). His parents live in Saudi Arabia. His father is (was?) Palestinian. His mother was an Egyptian living in Jordan when they met.
I think if it had not been for our parents, we would have dated a little longer.
It seems like the Arabic-speaking world is becoming an international community, like the European Union, where the young people all speak English as a second language and identify themselves as “European” in addition to “German” or whatever (but for Arabic-speakers there’s no language barrier at all to cross). I wonder if the Arab League will ever achieve the same degree of political integration as the EU. That would be exactly what Osama bin Laden wanted to achieve, kindasorta, except that it (presumably) wouldn’t be a Caliphate and (presumably) wouldn’t be pan-Islamic (Turkey and Iran and Islamic countries east and north would remain outside it).
I very small quantity are outposts. The map shows outposts as tan but I am looking at purple rain here. If you’d like to dispute the map as a source, do that, but don’t tell me you see different colors.
Defence is so clearly not the goal, that is a map of subjugation. What Netanyahu calls, “demographic changes that have taken place over the past 44 years”. Those changes took place because Israel never did respect the '67 borders, the Palestinians justifiably don’t believe they ever will. Perhaps Hamas has called for the destruction of Israel, but Israel is certainly methodically pursuing a course of destroying Palestine one foot at a time.
Ok. Build a fence on your neighbors property and tell him the same thing.
The ‘Might Makes Right’ canard, I won’t waste my time illustrating how offal that premise is.
I don’t see different colors. In the map you provided, the legend inside the smaller map says that dark purple = Israeli settlement, outpost, or military base.
The large map says differently.
My point was: The settlements are ‘protected’ because of military force. That’s what you call the occupation. That’s not a dispute. I don’t know why you are trying to argue with me. I was fine with giving up that shit years ago…pretty much since I was old enough to pay attention.
But I also understand why many were settled (or re-settled) in the first place.
I didn’t say that map was one of defense. I pointed out the military installations that defend the settlements & patrol the area (and, lets face it, does the policing that the PA doesn’t do).
It’s disputed whether the West Bank was ever intended to be captured or kept. Certainly not for this long. The military presence effectively keeps the PA from becoming a military force.
The U.S. occupied Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, Japan, etc. after wars. It’s part of the post-war process. It turned into something else.
Yes. And it’s silly to think that those changes aren’t going to be taken into consideration. The people who want those far-out settlements to stay aren’t the majority of Israeli society. Netanyahu will have to choose now, since he’s been privy to political posturing with his own far-right coalition.
There’s an armistice line and a border. Not the same thing. All of the post-Ottoman Israeli, Syrian, Egyptian, and Jordanian borders in the area have been based on war.
A border is something that Gaza and Israel have, or Egypt and Israel.
The West Bank used to be Jordan.
I agree, but they aren’t taught to think of a two-state solution, either.
Making it weak? Definitely. Destroying it? That doesn’t make a lot of sense, considering that Israel could’ve done that already. It’s been 40 years. I know Jews supposedly got lost in the desert and such, but we can’t be that bad when it comes to direction.
Except Palestine has never been a sovereign nation. Ever.
No, but might does equal power. If that weren’t the case, the U.S. wouldn’t be called a superpower.
Cut the rhetorical bullshit. If you want to have a serious discussion about history, politics, or foreign relations, that’s fine. But this propagandist shit that constantly seeks to demonize Israel isn’t worth my time. It’s petty.
eta: You’re looking at this from the wrong perspective. Topography is an issue. The settlers have already proved what you can do with supposedly desolate land. There is a viable state there. It needs work.
The concern re: Jordan is legitimate, though it may just be something that Israel has to monitor. (Again, harder to do without use of airspace and allies in the region.)
Eh? Seems to me that disbanding the settlements is exactly what Netanyahu objects to. Or, is he willing to disband some but not all? Has he made any statements on this?