Obama calls for independent Palestine, 1967 borders

[Malthus]

@Capitaine_Zombie

What a bullshit argument, Zionism, by its very definition, is against the existence of Palestine (as it was known to Palestinians before 48), does that mean that any Israeli political party (I do believe political parties in Israel cant legally have an anti Zionist stance, correct me if I’m wrong) should be permanently excluded from any possible peace talks?

Eh? Have you read, by chance, the Hamas charter?

Some highlights:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

Article Eight:

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

More tidbits:

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”

Please tell me again how my characterization of Hamas’ motives is “bullshit”. Or point to any political party in Israel which includes anything like this in their charter.

[Malthus]

@BrainGlutton

Why does Netanyahu keep saying the Green Line is not a defensible border between Israel and Palestine? Seems to me any border would be defensible, at least by the Israelis. It will be a long, long time before independent Palestine has an army that matters, compared to the IDF.

Not that I’m an advocate for Bibi - I think he’s a problem - but clearly what he means by “defensible” isn’t “from a conventional military invasion by Palestine alone”. He has two other things in mind:

(1) Rocket attacks and terrorist infiltration, such as from Gaza; and

(2) Attacks by some alliance of Arab powers, such as happened in '48, '67 and '73.

Neither of these scenarios requires Palestine to be a conventional match for Israel.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

It’s just the mirror image of the Israeli claims.

[Malthus]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

It’s just the mirror image of the Israeli claims.

I assume you are joking.

[BrainGlutton]

How about this for a swap? The Gaza Strip is evacuated. All Palestinians there go to the WB. All Israelis in the WB – even those between the Wall and the Green Line (but not those in East Jerusalem) – go to Gaza. The Strip currently supports a population of 1.6 million, so 300,000 Israelis won’t be crowded there. Each side agrees to destroy no property before leaving (yeah, right). Palestine loses its sea access, but the problem of a country with two discontiguous parts and whether a land corridor is necessary is all mooted. In exchange, Palestine gets rid of all the settlers, and gets all territory up to the Green Line except for East Jerusalem and suburbs. Doable?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Malthus

This is the most significant part:

With Hamas as part of the PA side, Obama simply could not plausibly cram a deal down Bibi’s throat, even if he wanted to - my point above.

What does Netanyahu have against democracy?

[Malthus]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

What does Netanyahu have against democracy?

What, have you declared today to be non sequitur day or something?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Malthus

I assume you are joking.

Not at all. Israel thinks it has exactly the same entitlement, and exactly the same justification for violence. Hamas is a little more overheated in its rhetoric because it represents the side that is being oppressed, but if the power differential was reversed, the most vocal Israeli extremists would be saying the same thing. It wasn’t Hamas that killed Rabin.

[Sitnam]

@Malthus

The main “provocative measure” made by Israel is the very fact of its existence - at least, if you listen to Hamas. As long as that remains true, peace will remain elusive.

:dubious: Hamas are and always will be a bunch of nutjobs, but it is certainly more difficult to undermine the support Hamas enjoys as Israel continues to grow larger. As long as their nation continues to shrink whatever Palestinian moderates there are will be ignored, and peace will remain elusive.

[RedFury]

@Malthus

…With Hamas as part of the PA side, Obama simply could not plausibly cram a deal down Bibi’s throat, even if he wanted to - my point above.

What about the Charter of the Likud Party?

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national need

– bolding mine.

Besides, Hamas has stated repeatedly that they “accept the existence of Israel within the 1967 borders.”

So let’s cut through the bullshit.

[carnivorousplant]

@Malthus

“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

I used to watch a Palestinian call in talk show on C Band satellite. A guy called up once and cried, “Statehood cannot be given. It must be taken!”

How popular a concept is that?

[Alessan]

@Capitaine_Zombie

What a bullshit argument, Zionism, by its very definition, is against the existence of Palestine (as it was known to Palestinians before 48), does that mean that any Israeli political party (I do believe political parties in Israel cant legally have an anti Zionist stance, correct me if I’m wrong) should be permanently excluded from any possible peace talks?

First of all, Zionism isn’t *against *anything - it’s *for *a Jewish state. There is no consensus as to what the borders of that state is, and most Zionist wouldn’t have a problem with any Palestinian state existing outside those borders.

Second of all, Hamas is against the existance of a Jewish state on any of what it defines as Palestinian lands, which is all of Israel. That’s completely different from the Zionist zpproach.

Third of all, there most certainly are anti-Zionist Israeli political parties, some of which have seats in the Knesset. You have the Arab parties - obviously - as well as the Communists, and several of the ultra-orthodox Jewish parties.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Malthus

What, have you declared today to be non sequitur day or something?

Hamas was democratically elected to the PA. Even Sarah Palin supported their legitimacy (mostly because she didn’t have any idea what Hamas actually is, but still…)

[Malthus]

@RedFury

What about the Charter of the Likud Party?

– bolding mine.

Nope, I fail to see any evidence there of an official desire on the part of Lukud to kill all Arabs as part of its religious duties.

Besides, Hamas has stated repeatedly that they “accept the existence of Israel within the 1967 borders.”

So let’s cut through the bullshit.

Hamas have also repeatedly stated that Hamas is lying about that. And not in Google-vomit, either.

For example, let’s look at what Hamas had to say a couple of days ago:
http://www.themedialine.org/news/news_detail.asp?NewsID=32209

But on Tuesday, A-Zahar, a senior Hamas official in Gaza, told Al-Quds daily that Mashal’s conciliatory statements towards Israel “did not represent official Hamas policy.”

“We did not give Abu-Mazen [Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas] the opportunity to negotiate nor did we agree to negotiations,” A-Zahar told the newspaper. “On the contrary, we have embarrassed him on the issue of negotiations time and again.”

“No change has occurred in Hamas’ position, which views [armed] resistance as the sole option,” he added.

A-Zahar’s comments seemed to echo those made by Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyya, who on May 15 told a crowd of 10,000 worshipers in a Gaza mosque that Palestinians hoped “to end the Zionist project in Palestine.”

So let’s cut through the bullshit, indeed.

[Alessan]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Hamas was democratically elected to the PA. Even Sarah Palin supported their legitimacy (mostly because she didn’t have any idea what Hamas actually is, but still…)

Just because they may be legitimate, that doesn’t mean we have to agree with them, make peace with them or even talk with them. All democracy means is collective responsibility. It doesn’t make you a saint. If Hamas was elected democratically, all that meanns is that they accurately reflect Palestinian public opinion, which gives us even less of a reason to make peace with them.

George W. Bush was elected democratically. Does that make everything he did OK?

[Malthus]

@carnivorousplant

I used to watch a Palestinian call in talk show on C Band satellite. A guy called up once and cried, “Statehood cannot be given. It must be taken!”

How popular a concept is that?

If you read the Hamas Charter, it is obvious that the “solution to the Palestinan problem” Hamas advocates is not Palestinian statehood alone - it is the massacre of all Jews in the territory and the establishment of an Islamic state.

This ain’t George Washingtons we are talking about.

[RedFury]

@Malthus

Nope, I fail to see any evidence there of an official desire on the part of Lukud to kill all Arabs as part of its religious duties…

Yeah, I guess keeping the Palestinians in a huge cage will do for now. :rolleyes:

[Malthus]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Hamas was democratically elected to the PA. Even Sarah Palin supported their legitimacy (mostly because she didn’t have any idea what Hamas actually is, but still…)

And my quote - which you responded to - was about Obama’s actions, not Bibi’s.

I said:

With Hamas as part of the PA side, Obama simply could not plausibly cram a deal down Bibi’s throat, even if he wanted to - my point above

You said:

What does Netanyahu have against democracy?

Which simply does - not - follow.

[Malthus]

@RedFury

Yeah, I guess keeping the Palestinians in a huge cage will do for now. :rolleyes:

Yeah, denying them independent statehood is just like killing them or enslaving them.

I assume you apply the same logic to support the sucession of the US South in the Civil War.

[carnivorousplant]

@Alessan

George W. Bush was elected democratically.

Not the first time, he wasn’t.