# Obama campaign finally fights back--What do you think? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286 "2008-09-12T15:35:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/41 "2008-09-13T05:18:42Z")
[QUOTE=Leaper] I also read that McCain doesn’t use a computer because his war injuries make it hard for him to type. [/QUOTE] [Senator John McCain using his Blackberry.](http://www.rimarkable.com/senator-john-mccain-is-a-blackberry-user) [Also, according to his own campaign:](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2008/09/obama-slams-mcc.html) > [@](#): > > “John McCain travels with a laptop,” said McCain campaign spokesman Tucker Bounds. So, no. ---
**Author:** ![initech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/439d5e/32.png) [@initech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/initech)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/42 "2008-09-13T05:21:02Z")
“Still” contains another, more subtle shift. It’s the first negative ad I’ve seen from the Obama campaign that places “I approved this message” at the end, rather than the beginning. Placing it at the beginning distances the candidate from the message to follow. It’s a chickenshit technique pioneered by the Bush campaign in 2004. I was disappointed that Obama was following suit. I hope they stick with this format. You can sling all the mud you like; at least sign your name to your own words. To his credit, McCain has placed the approval message at the end of every spot I’ve seen, no matter how negative. ---
**Author:** ![initech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/439d5e/32.png) [@initech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/initech)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/43 "2008-09-13T05:29:59Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > [Senator John McCain using his Blackberry.](http://www.rimarkable.com/senator-john-mccain-is-a-blackberry-user) As a phone. > [@](#): > > “John McCain travels with a laptop,” I can travel with three balls, it doesn’t make me a juggler. The spot cites articles from respected sources. Are the cites false? ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/44 "2008-09-13T05:59:18Z")
McCain’s injuries are no excuse for being computer-illiterate or even not using e-mail. For example David Pogue the NYTimes technology writer can’t physically type on his keyboard but uses voice recognition software to do his work. It’s pretty use to use and I imagine McCain could afford to hire someone to teach him how to use it. I think it would be a serious mistake for McCain to bring out the old POW card to complain about this. His campaign has already done it several times before on completely unrelated issues and he will make himself a figure of ridicule if he keeps doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/45 "2008-09-13T06:20:32Z")
Occurs: if 527s want to have an effective negative ad to turn the middle class and working class bases then they should concentrate less on the hiring/firing scandals in such a way as to make them identify her with any backstabbing irrational bitchy horror of a boss they’ve ever had (and most of us have had one). THAT the masses of asses can _relate_ (negatively) to. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/46 "2008-09-13T07:25:30Z")
It’s not even correct that McCain is computer-illiterate. [From Forbes in 2000:](http://www.forbes.com/asap/2000/0529/053_print.html) > [@](#): > > This Internet-driven decentralization meant that the McCain campaign could organize down to a virtually block-by-block level for little cost. It allowed a thin organization to compete against the heavily financed and well-organized Bush machine, and it gave McCain campaign dollars an estimated 4-to-1 advantage over Bush greenbacks. > > McCain himself was convinced early on that the Internet had to play a critical role in the campaign. Time and again it allowed him to leverage his money and his organization. “In the Virginia primary,” McCain told me, “we needed a lot of petitions signed to get on the ballot. We had the form available to download off the Internet and got 17,000 signatures with very little trouble.” > > Ultimately, McCain realized he couldn’t go the distance, but the message was clear to any political organization with hopes for the future. His Web team had played the Internet like a Stradivari. Ballot petitioning was simplified. Local email brought out large crowds on a few hours’ notice. The Web was used to enlist phone bankers from all over the country to download voter lists in upcoming primary states and then to make calls from their homes. Hundreds of thousands were reached at virtually no cost, compared to the going rate of 50 cents for every call from a professional phone bank. The Web became a virtual political print shop enabling thousands of volunteers to download and reproduce millions of pieces of campaign literature and signs on their home printers. The various pages on McCain’s Web site were used to put out key registration information and to douse political fires. > > According to Wes Gullett, McCain’s deputy campaign manager, the Internet was “everything–the only way we could have survived.” Time and again, Gullett was stunned by the power of the new kind of interactive campaign being created as they went along. “I had 2,500 volunteers in Arizona alone,” he says. “We had a headquarters full of people who knew about the campaign from the Internet.” > > The campaign’s innovative use of the Internet could turn out to be the most important single factor of this year’s election. And woe unto the future candidate who doesn’t study the McCain 2000 Internet campaign strategy carefully. “The Web was only an electronic billboard in the last two elections,” Max Fose says, “but this is the first time anyone ran a truly interactive campaign.” It certainly will not be the last. McCain’s campaign was a pioneer in using the web in the election, 8 years ago. And it seems that McCain was pretty much in the loop on that, and calling some of the shots. From Slate in 2000: > [@](#): > > Six months ago, no one would have pegged McCain as the most cybersavvy of this year’s crop of candidates. At 63, he is the oldest of the bunch and because of his war injuries, he is limited in his ability to wield a keyboard. But McCain’s job as chairman of the Senate commerce committee forced him to learn about the Internet early on, and young Web entrepreneurs such as Jerry Yang and Jeff Bezos fascinate him. Well before he announced his exploratory committee, McCain had assimilated the notion that the Web could be vital to the kind of insurgent, anti-establishment campaign he wanted to run. In December 1998, he sent his longtime political aide Wes Gullett to Minnesota to study Jesse Ventura’s successful gubernatorial campaign, which was the first to use the Web in an effective and innovative way. “Wes went up to Minnesota and talked to Ventura’s people,” McCain told reporters on the Straight Talk Express yesterday. “That’s really where we got the idea.” As for traveling with the laptop, apparently his wife Cindy does the typing for him, and he sits beside her and sometimes does the mousing. So let’s recap: The ad takes a cheap shot at McCain, and it turns out his limitations are due to his war injuries. Oops. Then it turns out that he’s actually pretty computer savvy anyway. Double oops. And along the way, they piss off old people. Finally, it’s highly ironic that Obama’s camp puts out an ad saying that McCain is not very good at the internet, but it seems like Obama’s camp was incapable of using Google, because all this info is available to anyone who spends five minutes on Google. Worst ad ever. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/47 "2008-09-13T09:41:25Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > I mean, [check out that sweet monitor setup in his office.](http://robitaille.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/gore-office.jpg) Never mind that: for a man so concerned about Global Warming, it’s interesting that he clearly manages his desk on the Volcano Principle. 😃 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/48 "2008-09-13T10:02:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*So let’s recap: The ad takes a cheap shot at McCain, and it turns out his limitations are due to his war injuries. Oops. Then it turns out that he’s actually pretty computer savvy anyway. Double oops. And along the way, they piss off old people. > > Finally, it’s highly ironic that Obama’s camp puts out an ad saying that McCain is not very good at the internet, but it seems like Obama’s camp was incapable of using Google, because all this info is available to anyone who spends five minutes on Google. > > Worst ad ever.\* I think it’s great, and I hope he keeps it up. Anyway, calling it the worst ad ever is laughable, compared to the McCain campaign’s blatantly lying ad about Obama’s support for legislation designed to help protect children from sex predators, with it’s transparent and despicable innuendo. And we note that **Sam** , as usual, is entirely silent when it comes to the sins of his own ideological brethren. If the right can display utter contempt for the service of John Kerry while simultaneously supporting (essentially) a draft-dodger as president, I don’t see why the left shouldn’t be allowed display utter contempt for McCain’s service as well. And I for one am sick as shit of the double standards exploited by Republicans in these debates, and during the election process. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/49 "2008-09-13T10:24:16Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > The one I’m afraid will backfire is the [things have changed since 1982](http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/gG53SH)one. I can hear a chorus of millions of people singing “well _I_ don’t know how to use a computer neither! That mean I’m ignurnt and unimpotent?” and adding to the “Obama’s an elitist” meme. They won’t make it to the tax cut records and substantive stuff. That was my reaction to that one as well. I don’t think that one will play the way they thought it would. The first one is still a little too nebulous. Obama’s plans may well have tons of details, but part of his problem is that his story isn’t resonating with the swing voters–they don’t see it (e.g., a poll that showed a majority thought he’d raise taxes on the middle class; whether or not he will, that’s certainly not part of his stated strategy). I tend to agree with the pundits that Obama has let the campaign turn on two points: He hasn’t successfully defined his opponent (as McCain is doing), and his story isn’t clear, beyond high-level platitudes, to voters beyond his base. These adds seem like more of the same problem. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/50 "2008-09-13T11:13:13Z")
Given its positive nature, _Real Change_ made much more of an impact on me than _Still_, especially after reading **Sam Stone** ’s fact check of the latter. But _Real Change_ was far too content-free for my tastes. Okay, it’s only 30 seconds, but still. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/51 "2008-09-13T11:23:10Z")
I wish Obama would stick to his original plan and ignore the silly things the McCain team throws at him. He should just say" I am a different kind of politition and intend to stick to my message, the Republicians do not define me, talk is cheap, the truth will come out on it’s own, I will not gratify that silliness with an answer". Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/52 "2008-09-13T11:41:33Z")
**monavis:** > [@](#): > > \*I wish Obama would stick to his original plan and ignore the silly things the McCain team throws at him. He should just say" I am a different kind of politition and intend to stick to my message, the Republicians do not define me, talk is cheap, the truth will come out on it’s own, I will not gratify that silliness with an answer". > \* History has proven that strategy to be an unmitigated disaster in American politics. When Democrats take the high road they are accused of being elitist, soft, weak, etc. It ends with Republicans openly mocking a man who served honorably in war and was awarded numerous medals for his service. This is bitch-slap politics, and its the way Republicans play the game. I say it’s time Democrats started returning the compliment. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/53 "2008-09-13T16:23:46Z")
Has “Still” actually aired? I hope it doesn’t. I don’t care if Obama is throwing sharp elbows or even taking a negative stance in some ads but the commercial itself fails to evoke any “Wow, you get’im!” from me and is a pretty blah ad spot. If you’re going to take on the “He’s not being 100% positive” criticism than at least make the ad worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/54 "2008-09-13T16:44:45Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > I think it’s great, and I hope he keeps it up. > And we note that **Sam** , as usual, is entirely silent when it comes to the sins of his own ideological brethren. And a few seconds of searching would have allowed you to discover the facts before throwing that particular cheap shot out there. I jumped on McCain and his ads twice last week. I was going to open a pit thread about one of them, but Diogenes beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/55 "2008-09-13T17:41:13Z")
> [@](#): > > _And a few seconds of searching would have allowed you to discover the facts before throwing that particular cheap shot out there. I jumped on McCain and his ads twice last week. I was going to open a pit thread about one of them, but Diogenes beat me to it._ And yet, in the face of ads that flatly lie about Obama’s record, and insinuate he’s a child molester, you chose to label this relatively harmless add about McCain’s **self-admitted** computer illiteracy as, _“Worst ad ever.”_ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/56 "2008-09-13T20:02:35Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > **monavis:** > > History has proven that strategy to be an unmitigated disaster in American politics. > > When Democrats take the high road they are accused of being elitist, soft, weak, etc. It ends with Republicans openly mocking a man who served honorably in war and was awarded numerous medals for his service. > > This is bitch-slap politics, and its the way Republicans play the game. I say it’s time Democrats started returning the compliment. So you think it was wise of Mr. Obama to insinuate 21% of American’s are out of touch? Is that wise of any contender for the nations highest office? I repeat whoever told Obama it was a good move to use McCain’s lack of computer literacy should be fired considering how many other things he could use without reverting to slime. [http://newsroom.parksassociates.com/article\_display.cfm?article\_id=5067](http://newsroom.parksassociates.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5067) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/57 "2008-09-13T20:27:13Z")
**RyJae:** > [@](#): > > _So you think it was wise of Mr. Obama to insinuate 21% of American’s are out of touch? Is that wise of any contender for the nations highest office? I repeat whoever told Obama it was a good move to use McCain’s lack of computer literacy should be fired considering how many other things he could use without reverting to slime._ Wise in what sense? Actually, I think it’s pretty stupid, but I also have come to understand that it is the nature of American politics as it’s currently played. Focusing on the actual issues will get you nowhere. McCain’s own [campaign manager](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/09/mccain_manager_this_election_i.html?hpid=topnews), Rick Davis, flatly stated, “This election is not about issues. This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates.” Do you think McCain and his handlers give a shit about alienating voters when they produce ads insinuating that Obama is a child molester, or when they prop up Palin to lie repeatedly about her record? The issue isn’t that what they do is wrong – it’s that right or wrong, they do what they want, ruthlessly. This is what wins votes in America. [The Politico](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13412.html) sums up McCain’s current strategy: > [@](#): > > \*\*The defense from the candidate himself — heard only on “The View” because he hasn’t held a news conference in more than a month — is to essentially assert that he’s savaging Obama because the Illinois senator wouldn’t agree to the series of town hall meetings McCain proposed at the end of the Democratic primary season… > > Current campaign aides and other Republicans who’ve closely watched the race, however, have a very different response to the media elites and good-government scolds: We don’t care what you think. > > McCain seems to have made a choice that many politicians succumb to but that he had always promised to avoid — he appears ready to do whatever it takes to win, even it if soils his reputation. > > “We recognize it’s not going to be 2000 again,” McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said, alluding to the media’s swooning coverage of McCain’s ill-fated crusade against then-Gov. George W. Bush and the GOP establishment. “But he lost then. We’re running a campaign to win. And we’re not too concerned about what the media filter tries to say about it"… > > “When he’s sitting in back of a bus and getting questions about Viagra, I think we understand at that point you’ve got to make some tactical adjustments,” he said, recalling a particularly awkward gotcha-of-the-day moment on McCain’s bus in early July…\*\* And then the kicker: an open admission that McCain can’t win if he runs on issues. > [@](#): > > \*\*\*“Clearly we intend to stay on offense,” Rogers said. “That’s what we need to do because the campaign is fundamentally about him. We feel comfortable about the ads we’re running and arguments we’re making.” > > And, given their surge in the polls and Obama’s uncertainty about how to respond to the Palin phenomenon, they’re going to keep it up. > > “Every day not talking about the economy, the war and how to fix a broken system is a victory for McCain,” said John Weaver, a former top strategist to the nominee who left the campaign last year. “They’re going to ride it as long as they can and as long as the mainstream media puts up every ridiculous charge.”\*\*\* In this environment, I argue, Obama has no choice but to fight fire with fire. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/58 "2008-09-13T20:45:09Z")
You’re making it about McCain, it’s not. Senator Obama got where he is by being different as in being a true change politician. At least that’s why I dawdled so long on the fence even though his policies and I don’t always see eye to eye. FTR McCain lost my vote for other blatant acts of slime. I just got depressed to see Obama is a politician, just like every other. So third party vote is my choice come November. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/59 "2008-09-13T20:49:49Z")
The first ad is relatively benign. The second one would be amusing if it were produced by Paris Hilton or some random YouTuber, but that kind of smug, smirking condescension is unbecoming in a presidential candidate. Not that it’s uncommon, but it would be nice to have the option of voting for one who was above that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286/60 "2008-09-13T21:38:30Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > The one I’m afraid will backfire is the [things have changed since 1982](http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/gG53SH)one. I can hear a chorus of millions of people singing “well _I_ don’t know how to use a computer neither! That mean I’m ignurnt and unimpotent?” and adding to the “Obama’s an elitist” meme. They won’t make it to the tax cut records and substantive stuff. Not only that - is it really all that wise to emphasize that McCain has decades of experience in the Senate? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-campaign-finally-fights-back-what-do-you-think/463286.md?page=4)