# Obama Cancels Missile Shield: Putin to Reciprocate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514 "2009-09-17T23:55:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/21 "2009-09-18T11:21:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes. [The $100 B neo-soc missiles are on-line](http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=54585). I’d encourage you to look at the ‘Intercept tests’ section and note that tests continue, and that results contine to be mixed. > **[Ground-Based Midcourse Defense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-Based_Midcourse_Defense)** > > Ground-Based Midcourse Defense (GMD), previously National Missile Defense (NMD), is an anti-ballistic missile system implemented by the United States of America for defense against ballistic missiles, during the midcourse phase of ballistic trajectory flight. It is a major component of the American missile defense strategy to counter ballistic missiles, including intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) carrying nuclear, chemical, biological or conventional warheads. > As of 2018, the system... ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/22 "2009-09-18T11:46:04Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > I’d encourage you to look at the ‘Intercept tests’ section and note that tests continue, and that results contine to be mixed. > > [Ground-Based Midcourse Defense - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-Based_Midcourse_Defense) You mean the results from the missiles that you said didn’t exist? Thanks for the update. If I need any more information on subjects you’re unfamiliar with I’ll be sure to keep you in the loop. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/23 "2009-09-18T12:04:53Z")
If you want to be pedantic then, yes, the system exists. It is, however, not fully developed, not ready for deployment, and arguably not even capable of meeting its intended goals with further development. Its selection and the rush-job money thrown at it were done with little attention paid to the actual facts of its non-performance. This is a promising avenue of research, to be followed up on a la DARPA for potential future systems, not something ready to roll out right now. This “missile shield” is an expensive boondoggle intended to solve a problem that doesn’t exist. The odds are very good that even if the problem does arise, and the substantial money is invested, that it will be technologically incapable of solving that problem when the time comes. Furthermore, due to its limited scope, it is vastly less costly for any attacking entity to defeat than it is for us to implement in the first place. This European deployment program never should have been started, and needs to be killed solely on its own merits. That killing it may or may not have diplomatic gains is entirely secondary to that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/24 "2009-09-18T12:12:43Z")
> [@Mekhazzio](#): > > If you want to be pedantic then, yes, the system exists. It is, however, not fully developed, not ready for deployment, and arguably not even capable of meeting its intended goals with further development. The missile shield is not a singular device but rather a compilation of many technologies which have multiple military applications. Just like every other system used by the military it is, and will continue to be, upgraded. > [@Mekhazzio](#): > > This “missile shield” is an expensive boondoggle intended to solve a problem that doesn’t exist. The shipborne system was active and ready to shoot down North Korean missiles had that nut-job actually launched one toward Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/25 "2009-09-18T12:15:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, Putin has agreed to export nuclear technology and more weapons to Venezuela. So it’s all good. Note to self: Putin is not a Bond villain, and “exporting nuclear technology and weapons to Venezuela” is not what it sounds like. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/26 "2009-09-18T12:21:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You mean the results from the missiles that you said didn’t exist? Thanks for the update. If I need any more information on subjects you’re unfamiliar with I’ll be sure to keep you in the loop. :dubious: If pedantry was a defence, you’d be safe from all incoming. It doesn’t, though, an argument make. ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/27 "2009-09-18T12:29:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The shipborne system was active and ready to shoot down North Korean missiles had that nut-job actually launched one toward Hawaii. That’d be because the Navy has had missile interception capabilties for decades, because that’s been the primary weapon in naval engagements, be they air- or ship-delivered, since the Korean War. It’s not exactly a huge stretch to ponder aiming these systems at other missiles, and the surprising success of using Patriots outside their scope in Desert Storm was pretty encouraging. The problem, however, is that you can’t just take a system created for shooting down cruise missiles aimed at the launching platform and expect it to actually be successful at shooting down ballistic missiles. The problem is several orders of magnitude more difficult, because ballistic missiles are harder to detect, move much faster, and will need to be intercepted at much longer ranges from the launcher. This has design repercussions through the entire system, as is reflected in the rather poor success rate even in carefully controlled tests. I’d guess that with another 5 or 10 years to cook, we might actually have something that works reasonably well. Investment should be aimed at R&D towards that end, not mass-producing the current implementations. Furthermore, this still doesn’t address the entirely valid argument that the most likely delivery of a nuclear warhead from a rogue state would not be via ballistic missile. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/28 "2009-09-18T14:30:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The missile shield is not a singular device but rather a compilation of many technologies which have multiple military applications. Just like every other system used by the military it is, and will continue to be, upgraded. However, _unlike_ other systems used used by the military, it was deployed while still under development. [GAO: Deployment Looms, But Missile Defense Remains Unproven](http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2004_05/MD) Some question the wisdom of pointing a half assembled M16 at Russia, and then daring them to nuke us. I guess now that we’re the worlds only remaining superpower it’s OK to shout ‘neener neener’ at everyone as long as it builds support for aerospace welfare programs within the defense bereaucracy. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/29 "2009-09-18T14:36:07Z")
This will probably be part of the reciprocation: [Russia could scrap Baltic missile plans following U.S. move](http://www.en.rian.ru/world/20090918/156173439.html) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/30 "2009-09-18T14:52:23Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > However, _unlike_ other systems used used by the military, it was deployed while still under development. You know who ELSE deployed experimental weapons systems while they were still under development? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/31 "2009-09-18T15:05:49Z")
This is great news. The only reason some people are pissed is because its Obama doing it and not a Rep president. If we had a choice between being friends with Russia or Poland, I’d go for Russia. They’re bigger, stronger, richer, and would be potentially more dangerous if annoyed. I’m afraid too many people are stuck in some time warp Cold War mentality where anything to piss off the Russians are a good thing. Fact is, we need Russia more than we need Poland, and Bush was needlessly antagonizing them with a missile shield that didnt work. Why not get rid of it? There is no downside to this move. Kudos to Obama for seeing through the political bullshit and pulling the plug on an antiquated system ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/32 "2009-09-18T19:03:05Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Note to self: Putin is not a Bond villain, Tell that to Polland. > [@Grumman](#): > > and “exporting nuclear technology and weapons to Venezuela” is not what it sounds like. It’s exactly what it sounds like. Venezuela is run by someone who is destroying free speech and attempting to stay in power indefinitely. Russia is arming an adversary to the United States while we are abandoning the same people who were brutally crushed in WWII only to be swallowed up Russia. They’re looking at Georgia and wondering if they’ll be next. Between Russia supplying Iran with nuclear technology and Iran working closely with Venezuela it is just increasing the likelihood of another 3rd world despot becoming a nuclear power. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/33 "2009-09-18T19:07:40Z")
Russia doesn’t have the juice to become the USSR again. Let’s not get carried away. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/34 "2009-09-18T19:43:06Z")
All politics aside, the plan would have been a huge waste of money for a very limited amount of protection. The plan was an under development, unproven boondoggle money pit. Headlines should read: “Obama saves a shitload of money by cancelling a useless government program” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/35 "2009-09-18T19:52:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s exactly what it sounds like. Your ‘nuclear technology and weapons’ sounds more like the Cuban missile crisis than it does ‘short range rockets’ and ‘help building atomic reactors’. Were you aware of how scary your sentence sounded, or was it just an accident of phrasing? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/36 "2009-09-18T19:52:38Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Headlines should read: “Obama saves a shitload of money by cancelling a useless government program” Well, yes, except that money spent on useless weapons doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/37 "2009-09-18T20:09:22Z")
I’m sorry but wasn’t Obama the one that was going to improve relations with allies after the supposed isolation of the Bush years? Now the Eastern European nations feel dumped and betrayed and Western Europe isn’t happy either. (The British press is full of WTF Obama? stories.) And all he gets for it is kind words and a smile from Putin? No wonder Putin is smiling, Russians love pushover liberals in the White House. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/38 "2009-09-18T20:17:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Russia is arming an adversary to the United States while we are abandoning the same people who were brutally crushed in WWII only to be swallowed up Russia. They’re looking at Georgia and wondering if they’ll be next. Venezuela is a true adversary of the U.S. only in the mind of Chavez. As much of a show as he makes of “flouting US influence and imperialism,” he still sells the US oil and that’s really the bottomline. Other than general annoyance, Chavez’s only significant accomplishment in hurting U.S. interests is encouraging fellow traveler Rafael Correa in Ecuador to not renew the U.S. lease on the drug trade interdiction Manas Air Base. Instead, American forces will just shift to bases in Colombia. [QUOTE=Magiver] I’d encourage you to look at the ‘Intercept tests’ section and note that tests continue, and that results contine to be mixed. [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, the tests aren’t designed to truly simulate an actual attack, since the test “attack” missiles fly in a straight line and don’t have any decoys. Even then, the test results are still very mixed. Developing a ballistic missile interceptor is extremely tough, but deploying a system that isn’t even ready to tackle the problem under the most ideal conditions is seriously questionable. It’s not protecting us from anything or offering much of a deterrent. Instead, it’s a giant feel-good measure designed to give the appearance of doing something which anyone with any in-depth knowledge of its status knows it almost certainly can’t do yet. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/39 "2009-09-18T20:25:30Z")
Well, now, our tests have proven that it is possible to intercept and destroy a missile from a perfectly cooperative enemy! After only…what? Thirty years? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514/40 "2009-09-18T20:31:15Z")
Also, the missile bases were apparently not very popular with the Polish or Czech people: [http://www.themonkeycage.org/2009/09/more\_on\_the\_missile\_shield\_why.html](http://www.themonkeycage.org/2009/09/more_on_the_missile_shield_why.html) (warning: blog) > [@](#): > > Below is a graph of Czech public opinion showing that over the past three years, a nearly unchanged two-thirds of the public has been opposed to construction of the radar and an even higher percentage has desired a referendum on the issue (presumably in order to vote against it; the data used to construct the graph are available here.) His data source, for those of you who read Czech and want to check him, is: [http://www.cvvm.cas.cz/upl/zpravy/100938s\_pm90713.pdf](http://www.cvvm.cas.cz/upl/zpravy/100938s_pm90713.pdf) and > [@](#): > > don’t have similar data on Poland, but a poll from August 2008 (when the treaty was signed) showed that 56% of the public opposed the missiles and only 27% supported supported them. Support rose somewhat in October 2008 (after the Russia-Georgia crisis), but a majority still opposed the radar (46% to 41%). The polls came from this publication: > **[10\_2008.pdf](https://www.cbos.pl/PL/publikacje/public_opinion/2008/10_2008.pdf)** > > 231.72 KB [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-cancels-missile-shield-putin-to-reciprocate/510514.md?page=3)