# Obama complains about Netanyahu; Sarkozy calls N. a 'liar'. Worse than the Green Line speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345 "2011-11-09T01:35:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/61 "2011-11-10T01:19:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not just religion. In general - particularly if you leave out the Orthodox - most American Jews are pretty liberal. The Republican strategy is apparently based on the idea that a lot of Jews are single-issue voters and the issue is Israel, but I’ve never seen any evidence that’s is the case. > Or Jews in America. Not all American Jews take the hyper pro-Israel stance that is favored by many politicians in both parties. Perhaps I’m not in tune with mainstream Judaism in America, but I think that among the Jewish immigrant population the single issue voters are more prevalent than you realize. Among all of the Russian Jewish immigrant families that I know, which number at roughly thirty, only mine is likely to vote for the Democratic candidate next election. My parents frequently get bombarded with emails assailing Obama as an enemy of Israel, a closet communist, and a Muslim radical. That Obama is bad for Israel and needs to be removed from office as soon as possible seems to be the taken for granted. I hope that Florida Jews are more of a Meet the Fockers variety, because if they bear any semblance to the Russian Jews that I know in the Midwest, Obama has no chance of securing their vote. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/62 "2011-11-10T01:41:34Z")
> [@Danja](#): > > Perhaps I’m not in tune with mainstream Judaism in America, but I think that among the Jewish immigrant population the single issue voters are more prevalent than you realize. Based on the statistics upthread, I’m pretty sure I’m right. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/63 "2011-11-10T17:19:08Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > If the Jews are consistently so much for the Democrats, why don’t the Republicans ditch them and try to fish votes form the people that are opposed to Israel? You mean…Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/64 "2011-11-10T17:31:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You mean…Palestinians? Now that would be an interesting campaign. I’d pay real money for that. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/65 "2011-11-10T19:11:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You mean…Palestinians? No, the Israeli People’s Front! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/66 "2011-11-12T15:53:34Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > No, I don’t agree. I still think Dems will have to answer for it (or feel like they do). I could be wrong. 'Scuse me. > > \ I think the Dems are still trying to deal with the Republicans’ charge that Obama is a secret Muslim that was born in Kenya (if by dealing with it you mean trying hard not to laugh). ETA: And as an American I sincerely hope that Obama is not pro-Israel or anti-Israel, just working for the best solution for everyone involved. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/67 "2011-11-12T16:20:45Z")
The premise of the thread is disingenuous. These are the OP’s [actual feelings](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14448184&postcount=46), posted in another thread: > [@CitizenPained](#): > > At the moment, Netanyahu is the leader of the only Jewish country in the world - one that most Jews have some tie to, either through visits, family, dual citizenship, or whatever. I personally don’t think that Israel is the crux of my Jewish identity (at all- it’s annoying, actually, the amount of attention and cash we’re supposed to give Israel) but I can’t help but to feel sad about (what most Jews view as) lopsided and thinly veiled antiSemetic jabs at Israel on the world stage. What Obama said wasn’t anti-Semetic - hell no - but it was in poor taste. And given the context of the convo, (France’s position of the UN recognition of a Palestinian state), it’s just extra sour. Because that comment wasn’t about Netanyahu alone - it was also about Israel in general. This attitude reminds me of the more rabid Irish-American “patriots” I have met - don’t live there, but have passions by proxy that far exceed actual citizens’ pain. Denying the opinion, in fact, of moderates; for example, Israelis whose opinions line up with those expressed in Haaretz. Indeed, the SDMB’s own highly-valued Israeli contributors are in actual physical peril from the situation, yet in my opinion are distinctly more dispassionate and reasoned than the OP. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/68 "2011-11-12T16:35:45Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > The premise of the thread is disingenuous. These are the OP’s [actual feelings](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14448184&postcount=46), posted in another thread:This attitude reminds me of the more rabid Irish-American “patriots” I have met - don’t live there, but have passions by proxy that far exceed actual citizens’ pain. Denying the opinion, in fact, of moderates; for example, Israelis whose opinions line up with those expressed in Haaretz. Indeed, the SDMB’s own highly-valued Israeli contributors are in actual physical peril from the situation, yet in my opinion are distinctly more dispassionate and reasoned than the OP. I fail to see how either post is in any way contradictory. She’s Jewish, and, despite general apathy about the situation, she feels insulted by it. If other Jewish people feel the same, then it does make sense that the Democrats are going to have to address this, and to wonder how it will be done. I also fail to see why you couldn’t address the comment you quoted in the thread in which it appeared. This thread is not contingent on her opinion of the situation. They are similar but separate topics of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/69 "2011-11-12T17:55:06Z")
American Jews don’t regularly read [Al-Jazeera](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/09/201192216365733499.html) - > [@](#): > > Obama is the “the first Jewish President”. That’s the title of New York magazine’s lead article, written by John Heilemann and quoting a major Obama fundraiser. > > Listening to Obama speak at the United Nations on Wednesday many would nod in agreement, not less in Palestine and the Arab world. > > The US president has embraced the rejectionist Israeli position on the question of international recognition of an independent Palestinian state. > > But that’s not a Jewish position. It’s a radical Zionist position. Many Jews, including US and Israeli Jews, do not embrace such extremist views. but they may read NY Mag. But the title (and argument) begs a [_huh_](http://nymag.com/news/politics/israel-2011-9/)? > [@](#): > > Obama’s people deny up and down that the loss of a seat last occupied by Anthony Weiner portends, well, pretty much anything for 2012. But the truth is that they are worried, and worried they should be, for the signs of Obama’s slippage among Jewish voters are unmistakable. Last week, a new Gallup poll found that his approval rating in that cohort had fallen to 55 percent—a whopping 28-point drop since his inauguration. And among the high-dollar Jewish donors who were essential to fueling the great Obama money machine last time around, stories of dismay and disaffection are legion. “There’s no question,” says one of the president’s most prolific fund-raisers. “We have a big-time Jewish problem.” Apparently Obama makes some liberal Jews uncomfortable if the final word is: > [@](#): > > The irony is that Obama—along with countless Israelis, members of the Jewish diaspora, and friends of Israel around the world—seems to grasp these realities and this choice more readily than Netanyahu does. “The first Jewish president?” Maybe not. But certainly a president every bit as pro-Israel as the country’s own prime minister—and, if you look from the proper angle, maybe even more so. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/70 "2011-11-12T18:04:20Z")
Missed the edit: That article is exactly what I’m talking about - it’s either the ‘We don’t support a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state, therefore, we must be VERY pro-Israel’ or the ‘You don’t understand international politics enough to get this’ or (like this article, which is something a magazine could write but not DNC operatives) the ‘Obama knows better than Netanyahu, making him more patriotic than Netanyahu’ meme. If the DNC wasn’t spending so much to court Jewish voters, I’d agree with the other posters who are saying it’s a non-issue and a non-problem. Last I checked, campaigns don’t put a lot of effort into courting votes that are already guaranteed. My OP was based on the premise that _there already was a problem_. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/71 "2011-11-12T18:14:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I fail to see how either post is in any way contradictory. She’s Jewish, and, despite general apathy about the situation, she feels insulted by it. If other Jewish people feel the same, then it does make sense that the Democrats are going to have to address this, and to wonder how it will be done. The alleged debate of this thread is presented as a dilemma for US electoral politics. However the title of the thread initially poisons the well by calling [the linked statement](http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/05/19/remarks-president-middle-east-and-north-africa) “the green line speech” (a phrase, incidentally, that returns this very thread as hit #1 on Google) and asks if something that is clearly a minor diplomatic wobble, in which an opinion was not even expressed by Obama, is “worse” than a phrase the OP has apparently coined based on (as far as I can tell) some talking point from far-right blogs. The well is further poisoned by her thread title, which misrepresents the order of events: “Obama complains about Netanhayu” is the lead, despite that interpretation being not only debatable, as stated, but also secondary to the Sarkozy comment. Thus we are asked to compare something debatable against something else debatable, but presented in a manner in which it is assumed that one thing is unambiguously bad and the other even worse. This is a dishonest piece of rhetoric. The quote I posted from the Pit thread is germane to this discussion, because indicates her view is _unequivocally_ that criticism of Israeli politicians is implicitly criticism of Israel: thus this GD “debate”, allegedly about US politics, indicates that the OP preconceives some great misdeeds have been perpetrated, where none necessarily have been. > [@BigT](#): > > I also fail to see why you couldn’t address the comment you quoted in the thread in which it appeared. I did, but I used language inappropriate for this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/72 "2011-11-12T18:31:25Z")
Should I have said “67 borders”? You’re right, I _could’ve_ said “67 borders, which are really 49 borders”. The first hit on Google for “Obama 67 borders speech” is from NYT. I really didn’t think one versus the other was a left v. right thing. I also think many would read, "“You’re fed up with him, but I have to deal with him even more often than you,” as a [complaint](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/complaint). Is it not? > [@](#): > > com·plaint (km-plnt) > n. > > 1. An expression of pain, dissatisfaction, or resentment. > 2. A cause or reason for complaining; a grievance. I feel your issue with the OP is more about Obama and your feelings on Israel and less about the actual question. Note my :smack: in the OP, which, imho, clearly indicated my displeasure of the gaffe because it :smack: isn’t making the case for Obama’s pro-Israel stance any easier for us Jewish Democrats. Again, I think your argument that I’m addressing a problem that does not exist is baseless. The OP is not about the merits of the ‘problem’, but rather what the latest gaffe does for the ‘problem’. The problem that is clearly a problem. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/73 "2011-11-12T19:33:29Z")
Netanyahu is a liar. While Obama didn’t call him that, he did not disagree with the statement of “liar” and pretty much did agree with “I can’t stand him.” He is a boil on diplomacy and a detriment to Israel. I’ve given up on Israel because they keep electing turds like Netanyahu (who is the worst of them) who all make promises about settlements and peace and then take official actions the other way. (And please spare me the Palestinians do the same thing stuff, I know that.) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/74 "2011-11-12T20:07:05Z")
Tiny nitpick: They didn’t directly elect Netanyahu. Kadima wasn’t able to form a coalition government, which is why Livni isn’t the PM right now. Kadima actually won the majority of votes. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/75 "2011-11-12T20:20:50Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Netanyahu is a liar. While Obama didn’t call him that, he did not disagree with the statement of “liar” and pretty much did agree with “I can’t stand him.” He is a boil on diplomacy and a detriment to Israel. I’ve given up on Israel because they keep electing turds like Netanyahu (who is the worst of them) who all make promises about settlements and peace and then take official actions the other way. (And please spare me the Palestinians do the same thing stuff, I know that.) I would say that Avigdor Lieberman is the worst of them, actually. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/76 "2011-11-12T20:53:13Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Netanyahu is a liar. While Obama didn’t call him that, he did not disagree with the statement of “liar” and pretty much did agree with “I can’t stand him.” He is a boil on diplomacy and a detriment to Israel. I’ve given up on Israel because they keep electing turds like Netanyahu (who is the worst of them) who all make promises about settlements and peace and then take official actions the other way. (And please spare me the Palestinians do the same thing stuff, I know that.) And when they occasionally elect a decent one like Rabin . . . ☹ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/77 "2011-11-13T01:06:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I would say that Avigdor Lieberman is the worst of them, actually. I stand corrected. That guy makes our Lieberman look harmless by comparison. I was thinking of Israeli PMs. Netanyahu makes Sharon look placid and peaceful by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/78 "2011-11-13T01:36:19Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I feel your issue with the OP is more about Obama and your feelings on Israel and less about the actual question. Not in the least. The problem I have is that _any_ real or imagined US government negativity _ever_towards Israel appears to be perceived by your good self as a “problem”. (Also that you appear to ally yourself with only the conservative side of Israeli politics and portray that as Israel as a whole.) In a world where one head of government calls another an unfuckable lard-arse, I think Obama’s alleged “complaint” (dictionary definitions of words are very unbecoming as a debating tactic) is a spit in the ocean, and focusing on it is a distraction from the fact that Nethanyahu is a complete dick and actually needs his most powerful ally to publicly bitch-slap him into not doing things that are unbelievably counterproductive like, say, [expanding the settlement program](http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Israeli-Settlement-Expansion-Raises-West-Bank-Tensions-133658633.html), which push the practicalities of a two-state solution even further over an already distant horizon. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/79 "2011-11-13T02:28:43Z")
Yes indeed - it seems far more reasonable to take the view that opposing Netanyahu, and his jingoist supporters, and all the havoc they’ve created, actually _is_ a pro-Israel attitude. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345/80 "2011-11-13T03:41:21Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I feel your issue with the OP is more about Obama and your feelings on Israel and less about the actual question. What **was** the actual question?! See post #53. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-complains-about-netanyahu-sarkozy-calls-n-a-liar-worse-than-the-green-line-speech/602345.md?page=5)