# Obama {deals | caves} on tax cut extensions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266 "2010-12-07T13:56:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/121 "2010-12-08T06:45:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t doubt your conscience, you most likely would not be here pulling on the same end of the rope as me if your heart wasn’t screwed in right. > > And I cannot fairly argue about principle, I’m not sure I have any left. Modesty went first, principles put up more of a fight. If I had one left, and it stood in the way of my helping a fellow American who desperately needs that help…well, what the hell, the other guys got _lots_ of principles and they’re _totally_ full of shit. > > Anyway, I could steal one if I find it useful. > > Maybe they would have caved, that would be wonderful. Maybe they always intended to, and the only way disaster would have befallen the helpless would be if they blundered their way into a principled position they couldn’t untangle themselves from. > > Today is Dec. 7th. A good day to remind us that people will do some _amazingly_ stupid things. When they know they are right, and God is on their side. On principle. Not to be too callous but we still have a safety net. Noone WANTS to be on welfare but if you’ve been on unemployment for two years then you have effectively been on a form of welfare anyways. People don’t end up starving to death when they lose unemployment. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/122 "2010-12-08T08:08:24Z")
Well, the correct value of “callousness” is a matter of personal outlook and nuance, to be sure. Before I would let _that_ come to pass, I would be willing to turn every gated community in America into vast tubs of Soylent Green. Really, it’s just a matter of perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/123 "2010-12-08T13:00:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Then the Democrats need to start fighting back. The Democrats should have introduces a bill extending only the middle-class tax cuts and then dared the Republicans to vote against it. > > “What? I thought you guys liked tax cuts? So how come when we tried to cut taxes you voted against it? Because it wasn’t tax cuts for millionaires?” The Democrats did exactly that, actually. And you didn’t hear about it. Because “we wanted to pass X but those meanies wouldn’t let us” is not actually as compelling a message as Dem partisans think it is. If voters cared about voting records, the GOP would have revealed their stark hypocrisy by those votes last week. Since it doesn’t matter, even relatively well-informed people like yourself didn’t even hear about the votes. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It’s a messaging problem. > > - GOP cut taxes under Bush and blew a colossal hole in the deficit. > > - Dems want to maintain the tax cuts for 98% of Americans. > > - GOP wants tax cuts to remain for the other 2% which will blow a colossal hole in the deficit. > > Why the Dems can’t get that most basic of points across is beyond me. I get it. It’s not a messaging problem in the sense you mean it. Democrats can’t talk about taxes and get elected. It doesn’t work. Obama promised to cut taxes of the middle class and most voters thought he would raise taxes. Democrats win by talking about other things. The strategy you want Obama to adopt would make things worse. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/124 "2010-12-08T13:57:24Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m sorry facts don’t line up with your ideology. Maybe you could change the your ideology to fit the facts? I realize I didn’t make much of an effort to help you understand what I was saying. You didn’t think I was talking about what the jobless would do with their benefits did you? I was giving alternatives to “sitting” on the money like you suggested the rich are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/125 "2010-12-08T14:02:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It’s a messaging problem. > > - GOP cut taxes under Bush and blew a colossal hole in the deficit. If you want to call it a messaging problem, go ahead. I would call it 'the inherent difficulties involved in getting people not to notice what was happening with the deficit and unemployment for the six or seven years between enacting the tax cuts and the collapse of the mortgage bubble". It’s kind of hard to keep people from asking, “if the tax cuts caused the deficit, why was the deficit so low then as opposed to now?” > [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > I don’t know why the Republicans would have blinked rather than wait and force the issue again in January. At least then Obama would have had the tax increases he promised. And I rather doubt that the pressure on Congress to pass the unemployment extensions would be any less in 2011 than it is now. Keeping in mind that the Dems still control Congress. That’s one of the more upsetting things about this whole debacle. Obama does not have the experience to be a good President. He couldn’t achieve much with control of Congress, and even before the new Congress is seated, he gets pwned like this. And I am not talking about the usual slavering partisan “eeeeevil Republicans/the rich are blood-sucking parasites/fucking Paul Krugman is the oracle of God” crap that gets pitched around here - I mean from some more nearly reasonable point of view. Obama negotiated to get something now he was in a better position to get next year anyway. He’s an idiot. The only chance we had was gridlock - that Obama would be able to get Congress to do nothing. Now we see that isn’t true - BHO just had to sit tight, and he would have gotten the tax increases he wanted so much. But he didn’t. Once again, he found himself outnumbered by a minority. Come next year, when Republicans come up with some stupid idea and Democrats come up with a different stupid idea, they will compromise on a bill that includes both stupid ideas and Obama will sign it. That’s what we get for treating the Presidency as an entry-level position. BHO isn’t like LBJ, who knew how to shepherd legislation. BHO has no experience in the business world, nor of being governor of any state that requires a balanced budget, so he has no idea how to balance the books. Our last hope was for gridlock, and that seems to be gone. We’re fucked. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/126 "2010-12-08T14:18:31Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Obama promised to cut taxes of the middle class and most voters thought he would raise taxes. Heck, Obama DID cut taxes of the middle class .. and polls show a significant portion of Americans STILL claim he raised taxes. So a lot of it is the message and defining the terms, which today’s Democrats seem to be totally flustered by and Republicans thrive on. Listen, put me down as another who would have liked to have seen more backbone from Obama and a harder line here. This “compromise” looks to be waaaay more favorable to the GOP side than the Dems. I can kinda see where he’s coming from, and what some of his game is (if I tilt my head and squint real hard), but I still don’t think he played it right. However … what is with the screaming from the congressional Democrats? Where the fuck were they the past two years, when they could have been dealing with this tax cut expiration before the clock struck midnight? With the partial exception of health care reform, the Senate Dems in particular have been rolling over for the Republicans so much the wind power generated could provide DC’s electricity needs for the next three years … so what is up with whining about Obama’s move now? This was your job to handle, you doofuses, and you didn’t do it when you had the chance. Yes, I know, the numerical Senate majority didn’t actually make up a working majority, due to the Senate filibuster rules. But bring up stuff and make 'em vote anyway! Heck, bring back the old days of forcing senators to read out of the phone book or recipes or whatever in order to hold the floor … I’d love to see the media coverage of Sen. DeMint wheezing along on the Senate floor for days trying to defend tax breaks for millionaires. In summary … this is probably not the best compromise our country could have gotten, but the Democrats in Congress really don’t have a leg to stand on when they complain about it. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/127 "2010-12-08T14:21:57Z")
Obama’s former budget guy, Orszag, has said that this is actually what he thought better. Just extend the tax cuts for two years, then end all of them. Not the marginal rates on incomes over 250K/yr, _all of them._ That way we get some Keynesian stimulus in the short term, & some ability to deal with the debt long-term. The question is, will the rates ever go back up at this rate? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/128 "2010-12-08T14:27:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s kind of hard to keep people from asking, “if the tax cuts caused the deficit, why was the deficit so low then as opposed to now?” I love how you characterize a $420 billion deficit in a time of full employment a “low deficit.” It’s so truthy. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/129 "2010-12-08T14:43:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, the correct value of “callousness” is a matter of personal outlook and nuance, to be sure. Before I would let _that_ come to pass, I would be willing to turn every gated community in America into vast tubs of Soylent Green. Really, it’s just a matter of perspective. Full disclosure: my condo complex has a gate. But it’s obviously not particularly exclusive, because I live there. Oh, and it’s broken at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/130 "2010-12-08T14:48:07Z")
Letting all tax cuts expire would have been catastrophic for the Democrats and likely bad for the economy, why would the Republicans ever cave when they were holding all the cards? I don’t understand why anyone thinks the Democrats had anything whatsoever to bargain with. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/131 "2010-12-08T14:53:09Z")
So a follow-on question: Obviously those who feel the tax rates remaining as they are reasonably pleased with the development; equally obviously, those that don’t feel betrayed at least to some extent by Obama. What party represents your interests the best, those of you in the first category? I mean, the really conservative folks have the Tea quasi-party; the more traditional conservatives have the Republicans, and you guys have the Democrats… except that the current crop doesn’t seem to be doing what you want. (I could say the same thing about the GOP circa 2006-2008, myself). What’s the best strategy for reclaiming your party’s ideals? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/132 "2010-12-08T15:02:38Z")
On NPR this morning the reports were strongly implying that the compromise is not a “done deal” and a lot of congressional Democrats are looking to change (or vote against) the agreement. I don’t know how much of that is accurate versus wishful thinking, but there’s at least some indication that the agreement is not yet written in stone. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/133 "2010-12-08T15:29:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Obviously those who feel the tax rates remaining as they are reasonably pleased with the development; equally obviously, those that don’t feel betrayed at least to some extent by Obama. And those who took seriously the Republican campaign rhetoric about reducing the deficit should feel betrayed most of all, shouldn’t they? Except for those who still cling to that supply-side bullshit in spite of experience, that is. Why have you left that part out? :dubious: Interesting comment by Obama comparing the GOP to hostage takers, threatening to harm the American people they hold hostage if they didn’t get their way. Obama believes they would have, but who else does? Are McConnell and Boehner so beholden to their top-1-percent masters that they would seriously drop the pretense of standing for the American people and actually vote against middle-class tax cuts and unemployment extensions. They’re ruthless but I can’t believe they’re suicidal. Obama needed to be absolutely clear, before announcing the deal, just what he had to give the GOP in order to get the vast majority what they need. What should come next, under the circumstances, is a bill that leaves out, or separates, the millionaires’ tax cut extension (fat lot of good it has done) and the inheritance tax reduction, call the GOP bluff, and vote up or down on what they all say the good stuff is and what only the GOP says the good stuff is. Make it clear even to Fox listeners just who stands for what and for whom. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/134 "2010-12-08T15:57:49Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Letting all tax cuts expire would have been catastrophic for the Democrats and likely bad for the economy, why would the Republicans ever cave when they were holding all the cards? I don’t understand why anyone thinks the Democrats had anything whatsoever to bargain with. The Republicans are hardly holding all the cards so they need some support from the Democrats to pass any laws (and vice versa). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/135 "2010-12-08T16:11:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > …They’re ruthless but I can’t believe they’re suicidal… People are not suicidal. People are stupid. They believe they can wipe out the American fleet at Pearl Harbor, seize enough colonies to sustain an Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, and negotiate a peace deal favorable to themselves. They believe they will smash through the Balkans and seize Moscow before October. They believe they will be greeted as liberators in Baghdad. I am not an expert in anthropology, but experts advise that, despite some clearly insectile characteristics, Republican topology and cladistics clearly reveal them to be human, and hence, just as bone-brained stupid as the rest of us. “Suicidal” doesn’t enter into it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/136 "2010-12-08T16:31:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I love how you characterize a $420 billion deficit in a time of full employment a “low deficit.” > > It’s so truthy. Thanks. A few back-of-the-envelope calculations, and we can see that it is, in fact, quite truthy indeed. The deficit under Bush averaged about 1.73% of GDP, which by historical standards is pretty low, even with the recession Bush inherited. Under Obama, it is about five times higher. [Cite](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/137 "2010-12-08T16:37:44Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Full disclosure: my condo complex has a gate. But it’s obviously not particularly exclusive, because I live there. Oh, and it’s broken at the moment. Upon careful examination, I am pleased to report that your name does not appear on the Straight to the Wall List. You have, of course, multiple indictments pending concerning anti-social hooliganism, i.e., bad puns. It is still possible that redemption can be sought in a vigorous program of public apology and self-criticism. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/138 "2010-12-08T16:39:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks. A few back-of-the-envelope calculations, and we can see that it is, in fact, quite truthy indeed. > > The deficit under Bush averaged about 1.73% of GDP, which by historical standards is pretty low, even with the recession Bush inherited. Under Obama, it is about five times higher. [Cite](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html). > > Regards, > Shodan I wonder if you understand that we’re suffering from the hugest economic downturn in decades. I doubt it, because if you did understand it, you’d realize that the majority of the Obama deficit was due to necessary things like the stimulus and reduced government income. But I’m sure it’s easier to be a partisan without knowing stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/139 "2010-12-08T16:54:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Republicans are hardly holding all the cards so they need some support from the Democrats to pass any laws (and vice versa). Doing nothing and letting the tax cuts expire: bad for Democrats. Passing no laws for the next two years: bad for Democrats. How are the Republicans not holding all the cards? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/140 "2010-12-08T17:33:09Z")
Keith Olbermann sums it up pretty well for me. 12 minutes long, worth a watch: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW3a704cZlc) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266.md?page=8)