# Obama {deals | caves} on tax cut extensions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266 "2010-12-07T13:56:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/141 "2010-12-08T17:54:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks. A few back-of-the-envelope calculations, and we can see that it is, in fact, quite truthy indeed. > > The deficit under Bush averaged about 1.73% of GDP, which by historical standards is pretty low, even with the recession Bush inherited. Under Obama, it is about five times higher. [Cite](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html). **sigh** > [@](#): > > “The fact of the matter is,” Obama replied, “is that when we came into office, the deficit was $1.3 trillion – $1.3 trillion. So when you say that suddenly I’ve got a monthly deficit that’s higher than the annual deficit left by Republicans, that’s factually just not true, and you know it’s not true. And what is true is that we came in already with a $1.3 trillion deficit before I had passed any law. What is true is, we came in with $8 trillion worth of debt over the next decade.” > > \ > > The CBO creates its estimates based on current law, which means the CBO assumes that the Bush tax cuts will end in 2010 and everyone will start paying higher taxes in 2011 and going forward. The Obama administration, on the other hand, assumed in its baseline that those tax cuts would be renewed. > > Economists we spoke with – Josh Gordon, policy director for the Concord Coalition, and Brian Riedl, lead budget analyst of the conservative Heritage Foundation – both said they believe the White House approach is more realistic because it assumes current policy will continue. > > So the CBO’s estimate is $5 trillion lower than the White House numbers, though economists don’t quibble with the White House methodology. It does highlight, however, that when it comes to budget projections, people can have differences of opinion about what to include. In any budget projection there is room for interpretation, but it seems reasonable to assume for a baseline that the Bush tax cuts will continue. Obama’s numbers are fairly solid, so we rate his statement Mostly True. > > SOURCE: [PolitiFact | Obama inherited deficits from Bush administration](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/29/barack-obama/obama-inherited-deficits-bush-administration/) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/142 "2010-12-08T18:09:15Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If my esteemed colleagues have not been able to explain this to you so far, I doubt I can either. Considering your propensity (and that of your esteemed colleagues) for arguing against things I’ve not actually said, I would have to agree with your assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/143 "2010-12-08T18:11:37Z")
> [@Uncle\_Jocko](#): > > Heck, Obama DID cut taxes of the middle class .. and polls show a significant portion of Americans STILL claim he raised taxes. So a lot of it is the message and defining the terms, which today’s Democrats seem to be totally flustered by and Republicans thrive on. I say the opposite is true. Obama raised taxes by a lot (in the HCR bill) and people like you deny it, based on “defining the terms”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/144 "2010-12-08T18:14:44Z")
I think Uncle Jocko is referring to [this](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/19/us/politics/19taxes.html) tax cut. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/145 "2010-12-08T18:17:34Z")
I’m aware of that tax cut, and have discussed it in a prior thread on these boards. But Obama also raised taxes. So people who tell pollsters that they think Obama raised taxes are correct, and people who think those polls reflect a problem of message and defining terms are themselves playing games (or ignorant). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/146 "2010-12-08T18:41:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And those who took seriously the Republican campaign rhetoric about reducing the deficit should feel betrayed most of all, shouldn’t they? Except for those who still cling to that supply-side bullshit in spite of experience, that is. Why have you left that part out? :dubious: Because they really just wanted their tax cut. how many times did you hear “the problem isn’t that we aren’t taxed enough, the problem is that we are spending too much” followed up by the question “so, what specifically would you cut” follwed by deafening silence or something really stupid like “earmarks” or something really vague like “waste fraud and abuse” > [@](#): > > Interesting comment by Obama comparing the GOP to hostage takers, threatening to harm the American people they hold hostage if they didn’t get their way. Obama believes they would have, but who else does? Are McConnell and Boehner so beholden to their top-1-percent masters that they would seriously drop the pretense of standing for the American people and actually vote against middle-class tax cuts and unemployment extensions. They’re ruthless but I can’t believe they’re suicidal. I wonder how Obama would react to a real hostage crisis. What would he have done during teh Iran hostage crisis? At this point he would have to nuke Iran to get anyone to take his ultimatums seriously. I am sorely disappointed in him. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/147 "2010-12-08T18:55:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m aware of that tax cut, and have discussed it in a prior thread on these boards. But Obama also raised taxes. So people who tell pollsters that they think Obama raised taxes are correct, and people who think those polls reflect a problem of message and defining terms are themselves playing games (or ignorant). What do you think the net effect of these tax cuts/increases are? ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/148 "2010-12-08T18:57:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The deficit under Bush averaged about 1.73% of GDP, which by historical standards is pretty low, even with the recession Bush inherited. Under Obama, it is about five times higher. [Cite](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html). Of course, using your [own cite with slightly adjusted parameters](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=2000_2010&view=1&expand=&units=p&fy=fy11&chart=G0-fed&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&title=US), we see that even before Obama took office, the ratio was already at 10%. Ooops. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/149 "2010-12-08T18:59:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What do you think the net effect of these tax cuts/increases are? Over the long term, a big increase. The tax cut part was a temporary stimulus. The tax increases were permanent. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/150 "2010-12-08T20:22:50Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > The deficit under Bush averaged about 1.73% of GDP, which by historical standards is pretty low, even with the recession Bush inherited. Under Obama, it is about five times higher. [Cite](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html). > > Of course, using your [own cite with slightly adjusted parameters](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=2000_2010&view=1&expand=&units=p&fy=fy11&chart=G0-fed&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&title=US), we see that even before Obama took office, the ratio was already at 10%. > > Ooops. Furthermore, this is such a fucking dishonest talking point, it deserves to be pursued a bit further. Since you chose the measure, **Shodan** , let’s take a closer look at the Deficit/GDP ratio, notably how it has changed over time. From when Bush took office to when he left, the Deficit/GDP ratio went from [_negative_ (that would be Clinton’s surplus) to _near 10%_](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=2001_2009&view=1&expand=&units=p&fy=fy11&chart=G0-fed&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&title=US&state=US&color=c&local=s)! From when Obama took office to now, the Deficit/GDP ratio has gone from [9.9% (where Bush left it) to 10.7%](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=2009_2010&view=1&expand=&units=p&fy=fy11&chart=G0-fed&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&title=US&state=US&color=c&local=s). Not even one percentage point growth. And now let me be as dishonest as you, **Shodan**. If we consider the years from [2009 (when Obama took office) and project into 2014](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=2009_2014&view=1&expand=&units=p&fy=fy11&chart=G0-fed&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&title=US&state=US&color=c&local=s), we see the ratio drop from 10.7% down to below 4%! Using your own cite and measure, it looks like Obama is doing a stellar job on the deficit. Clearly you agree, right? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/151 "2010-12-08T20:42:45Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Because they really just wanted their tax cut. how many times did you hear “the problem isn’t that we aren’t taxed enough, the problem is that we are spending too much” followed up by the question “so, what specifically would you cut” follwed by deafening silence or something really stupid like “earmarks” or something really vague like “waste fraud and abuse” > > I wonder how Obama would react to a real hostage crisis. What would he have done during teh Iran hostage crisis? At this point he would have to nuke Iran to get anyone to take his ultimatums seriously. > > I am sorely disappointed in him. There are a lot of cuts that could be made. The argument for raising taxes shouldn’t be “but we are already spending too much, we want to spend more” As has been pointed out here before, cuts need to be made across the entire landscape of the federal government: Defense, SSN, Welfare (and other handout programs) Let’s start there and we can move on to other places. The question isn’t really where do we need to make cuts, it’s who is going to take the hit for making the necessary ones. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/152 "2010-12-08T21:02:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So a follow-on question: > > Obviously those who feel the tax rates remaining as they are reasonably pleased with the development; equally obviously, those that don’t feel betrayed at least to some extent by Obama. > > What party represents your interests the best, those of you in the first category? > > I mean, the really conservative folks have the Tea quasi-party; the more traditional conservatives have the Republicans, and you guys have the Democrats… except that the current crop doesn’t seem to be doing what you want. (I could say the same thing about the GOP circa 2006-2008, myself). > > What’s the best strategy for reclaiming your party’s ideals? Your questions make presumptions. The Teawhatever party doesn’t have much in the way of known conservative ideals. Neither does the Republican party, and the Democrats doesn’t hold many liberal ideals either. Actually, all of those groups seem to be divorced from any consistent principle except the lust for power. Personally, none of these parties, or any I’ve ever heard of represents me. And if you find the Republicans representing you now, then your political ideology must simply be Obama and Democrats are bad, and all tax cuts are good. Someone represented by the Democratic party would have a political ideology of getting steam-rolled by Republicans, and for the Tea types, well they haven’t actually done anything, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/153 "2010-12-08T21:32:57Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > The argument for raising taxes shouldn’t be “but we are already spending too much, we want to spend more” Sure it can be. If our taxes were only 5%, we would not be able to fund the minimum amount of roads, military, courts, and regulatory bodies needed for a healthy modern nation, no matter what your political perspective. However, it could be your opinion that if we just raised the expenditures to an equivalent of a 15% rate without raising taxes, then the final result would be _worse_ than if we hadn’t raised taxes, because the increased utility is more than made up for by the staggering debt incurred. So it would be preferable to raise taxes and raise spending in that situation. Such a situation could be fairly described as “we are already spending too much, we want to spend more”. If you agree that the basic needs of the nation require more than a token amount of taxes, but that in the long run, huge deficits can be worse than high taxes, then you’re just arguing over degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/154 "2010-12-08T21:51:50Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Sure it can be. > > If our taxes were only 5%, we would not be able to fund the minimum amount of roads, military, courts, and regulatory bodies needed for a healthy modern nation, no matter what your political perspective. > > However, it could be your opinion that if we just raised the expenditures to an equivalent of a 15% rate without raising taxes, then the final result would be _worse_ than if we hadn’t raised taxes, because the increased utility is more than made up for by the staggering debt incurred. So it would be preferable to raise taxes and raise spending in that situation. Such a situation could be fairly described as “we are already spending too much, we want to spend more”. > > If you agree that the basic needs of the nation require more than a token amount of taxes, but that in the long run, huge deficits can be worse than high taxes, then you’re just arguing over degrees. If you felt as if you are spending too much (which a lot of folks at this point do), then it holds that spending more than you do currently would not be the ideal solution (hell, it wouldn’t even be a thought) I’m sure we could agree on a lot of ‘necessary spending’ but I feel that most of the necessary spending has long since jumped the shark and now government is just growing for the sake of growing. Politicians want more power and control (for the Pubs, its about money) (for the Dems, they want to save the 'stupid people from themselves and money) The fact that any entitlement package/defense contract/whatever is ‘off the table’ just goes to show you how selfish people are across the board (and this holds true for both parties) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/155 "2010-12-09T03:30:56Z")
Cutting everything logical would not touch the deficits. You have to get more revenue. That is the obvious and apparent truth. Sorry that righties will not face it. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/156 "2010-12-09T04:07:38Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Cutting everything logical would not touch the deficits. You have to get more revenue. That is the obvious and apparent truth. Sorry that righties will not face it. Where are these ‘logical’ cuts you speak and why haven’t they been cut? Ok, you go first. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/157 "2010-12-09T04:09:03Z")
I haven’t fallen for that one in a long time. She never did show me hers. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/158 "2010-12-09T04:37:27Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Where are these ‘logical’ cuts you speak and why haven’t they been cut? > Ok, you go first. It has been done. I would however suggest we get out of iraq and Afghanistan. Since our war budget is equal to the next 26 nations, it would be easy to find more. But the sad fact is no cuts will have any impact. you have to raise revenue. Shutting down the Bush tax cuts will kill over 25 % of the deficits. That is a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/159 "2010-12-09T04:41:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Cutting everything logical would not touch the deficits. You have to get more revenue. That is the obvious and apparent truth. Sorry that righties will not face it. I almost forgot to ask but you got a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/160 "2010-12-09T04:42:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I haven’t fallen for that one in a long time. She never did show me hers. After all these years, you still crack me up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266.md?page=9)