# Obama {deals | caves} on tax cut extensions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266 "2010-12-07T13:56:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/161 "2010-12-09T04:54:40Z")
I think that it is a lose, lose, lose for everyone except the top 2 percent of taxpayers and a small subset of the unemployed that get continued benefits. Obama looks weak and unskilled in negotiation. The American people have a terrible precedent set of cutting the funding end of social security, the deficit is made much worse. There is no plan for closing the future deficit gaps and the dollar will continue to weaken and the economy sputter because of it. Without a long term plan to show investors how the debt and deficit is going to be dealt with, this only makes the problem with the budget worse. Obama topped all of this off by insulting his allied critics, rather than having them at the table, he cut them out. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/162 "2010-12-09T15:41:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The tax cuts were a bad idea when Bush did them and they are a worse idea now. There is no persuasive evidence that giving this money to the top 2% will do anything to help the economy. It merely blows a gaping hole in the deficit and further widens the gap, which is already a chasm, between the haves and the have-nots. > > He should have stood his ground. He is pandering to people who do not like him anyway and giving them an extension on the tax cuts will do nothing to improve their attitude towards him. They will still oppose him at every turn anyway. You’d think the guy would have learned this lesson by now. > > This only serves to alienate those who did support him. I thought it was Politics 101 that you don’t piss off your constituency yet here he is doing it. I wish SD had the ‘Reputation’ feature, because I’d be adding to yours right now. > [@Squink](#): > > President Obama hurt the country last night by giving in to extortionists. > He now has no more credibility than the Republicans when it comes to reducing the deficit.\*\* > His action was expedient, but irresponsible.\*\* > Well, at least he hasn’t started any more stupid wars… Totally irresponsible. We need more stimulus, this was not the way to go about it. > [@spazattak](#): > > I don’t understand this from the deficit hawk point of view… The Republicans main opposition to the unemployment benefits was that they were unfunded. Now their compromise is an unfunded tax cut plus an unfunded extension of unemployment benefits? How is that at all consistent and why is that not the story right now? What I don’t understand is why the Democrats are so fucking bad at messaging, that they haven’t been pounding and pounding and pounding home the following message: 1. The Republicans who instituted these tax cuts are the ones who put the sunset date on them. BLAME THEM for the fact that they’re expiring now. 2. The reason they had to put the sunset date on them is that that was the only way to skirt PAYGO rules. These tax cuts have been UNFUNDED for a decade. BLAME THEM for irresponsibly increasing the deficit and not “paying for” their legislation (same with the Medicare debacle!). 3. Now that Republicans have an opportunity to make their tax cuts permanent for 98% of Americans, they refuse to, because their ultra rich buddies aren’t included. BLAME THEM for middle class taxes going back up to where they were. We had a golden opportunity to frame this debate in the eyes of the public and we completely dropped the ball. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Once again, [Tom Tomorrow nails it!](http://www.salon.com/entertainment/comics/this_modern_world/2010/12/07/this_modern_world) I’d ‘rep’ you, too, if I could. Thanks for posting that. > [@TriPolar](#): > > These tax cuts are a proven job killer. They are nothing but a give-away to the rich, which will guarantee a lack of investment in the US economy. Paying for these tax cuts means borrowing more from Russia and China. . . And Saudi Arabia and _Iran_, of all places! We’re not only increasing our deficit, we’re actually risking our national security here. > [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > snip. > > Agreed. When the republicans made it known that were planning to basically take congress hostage through procedural nonsense earlier, Obama should have gone on television and made a speech reading them the riot act. At this point the left just wants to know that he’s DOING SOMETHING. He should have let them stall things up and pointed it out mercilessly until both sides got their acts together. The president has nothing if not the “bully pulpit”. As a parent of two he should know that giving the tantrum throwing child what he wants is NOT the way to get what YOU want out the deal. On another forum, I was asked why I wasn’t as angry at the Republicans as I seem to be at the President. How can you be angry with a 3 year-old when he does what a 3 year-old does? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And those who took seriously the Republican campaign rhetoric about reducing the deficit should feel betrayed most of all, shouldn’t they? Except for those who still cling to that supply-side bullshit in spite of experience, that is. Why have you left that part out? :dubious: > > Interesting comment by Obama comparing the GOP to hostage takers, threatening to harm the American people they hold hostage if they didn’t get their way. Obama believes they would have, but who else does? Are McConnell and Boehner so beholden to their top-1-percent masters that they would seriously drop the pretense of standing for the American people and actually vote against middle-class tax cuts and unemployment extensions. They’re ruthless but I can’t believe they’re suicidal. > > Obama needed to be absolutely clear, before announcing the deal, just what he had to give the GOP in order to get the vast majority what they need. What should come next, under the circumstances, is a bill that leaves out, or separates, the millionaires’ tax cut extension (fat lot of good it has done) and the inheritance tax reduction, call the GOP bluff, and vote up or down on what they all say the good stuff is and what only the GOP says the good stuff is. Make it clear even to Fox listeners just who stands for what and for whom. You haven’t been paying attention. [They did that.](http://www.latimes.com/sc-dc-senate-tax-cut-vote-20101204,0,6434052,full.story) "In a rare Saturday session, Senate Democrats and Republicans remained at loggerheads over whether to extend the George W. Bush-era tax cuts to all taxpayers, ratcheting up the pressure on lawmakers to try to reach agreement before the tax cuts expire at the end of the year. "With Republicans unified in opposition, Democrats, as expected, fell short of the votes needed to overcome a filibuster and extend the tax cuts for all but the very wealthy. **"An extension of the tax cuts to families earning less than $250,000 a year was defeated, 53-36, short of the 60 needed to limit debate. An extension of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts to those earning less than $1 million annually was rejected, 53-37.**" > [@Skammer](#): > > On NPR this morning the reports were strongly implying that the compromise is not a “done deal” and a lot of congressional Democrats are looking to change (or vote against) the agreement. I don’t know how much of that is accurate versus wishful thinking, but there’s at least some indication that the agreement is not yet written in stone. It’s definitely not over, and I urge everyone to [read Senator Mark Warner’s proposal](http://warner.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=compromise-on-tax-cuts), and if you agree that it’s the better compromise, [call your Representatives](http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW_by_State.shtml) in Congress, [Call your Senators](http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm), [call Nancy Pelosi](http://www.speaker.gov/contact/), [call Harry Reid](http://reid.senate.gov/contact/offices.cfm) and [call the White House](http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact) (phone numbers in the right-hand column). The more I learn about this capitulation deal, the more I hate it (and I’m one of the people who will benefit more from it). [**Who Loses Under Obama’s GOP Tax Compromise? The Working Poor**](http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/taxes/working-poor-pay-more-obama-gop-tax-compromise/19752400/?icid=fbuzz%7Cworking-poor-pay-more-obama-gop-tax-compromise/19752400&a_dgi=aolshare_facebook) "But as tax experts look at the proposal more closely, it has become clear that the working poor will actually end up losing money under the new arrangement. “Single working people with earnings below $20,000 and married couples with earnings below $40,000 are worse off under the payroll tax cut proposals in the compromise between the president and the Republicans,” explains Bob Williams, a senior fellow at the Washington, D.C.-based Tax Policy Center. Here’s why: The Obama proposal substitutes a Social Security payroll tax cut for the Making Work Pay credit, which was targeted to do the most good for low-income families. Under current rules, the working poor receive $400 when they earn at least $6,452 a year through the Making Work Pay credit. Married couples with earnings above $12,900 get $800 under the program. **The compromise cuts the Social Security payroll tax from 6.2% to 4.2%, so a couple would have to earn $40,000 to get the same $800 tax benefit. Every working-class couple earning less than that will get less than $800, meaning they lose money under the Obama proposal.**" Call, call, call! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/163 "2010-12-09T16:45:32Z")
Well, you probably don’t need to worry about calling. [Seems](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/09/house-democrats-defy-obama-on-tax-cut-bill/?hpt=T1&iref=BN1) the house Dems have rejected the compromise: > [@](#): > > (CNN) - Defying President Obama, House Democrats voted Thursday not to bring up the tax package that he negotiated with Republicans in its current form. > > “This message today is very simple: That in the form that it was negotiated, it is not acceptable to the House Democratic caucus. It’s as simple as that,” said Democratic Congressman Chris Van Hollen. > > “We will continue to try and work with the White House and our Republican colleagues to try and make sure we do something right for the economy and right for jobs, and a balanced package as we go forward,” he said. > > The vote comes a day after Vice President Biden made clear to House Democrats behind closed doors that the deal would unravel if any changes were made. > > The vote also come less than an hour after Obama himself urged Congress to pass the compromise he struck with GOP leaders earlier this week and warned that failing to do it could cost jobs. > > “There is an important debate on Capitol Hill that will determine in part whether our economy moves backward or forward,” Obama said at an Export Council meeting. “The bipartisan framework we have forged on taxes will not only protect working Americans from seeing a major tax increase on January 1, it will provide businesses with incentives to invest, grow, and hire.” > > “Every economist I have talked to or read over the last couple of days acknowledges that this agreement would boost economic growth in the coming years and has the potential to create millions of jobs,” Obama continued. “The average American family will start 2011 knowing that there will be more money to pay the bills each month, more money to pay for tuition, more money to raise their children,” he said. “But if this framework fails, the reverse is true. Americans will see it in smaller paychecks that will have the effect of fewer jobs.” Wonder how this will play out. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/164 "2010-12-09T18:18:35Z")
[From the NYT](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/09/house-democrats-voices-opposition-to-tax-cut-deal/) > [@](#): > > The House Democrats, however, have little leverage. If they were actually able to muster opposition and defeat the tax plan, the White House would presumably work with the incoming Republican majority to get it approved in early January, but perhaps only after Republicans extract even further concessions. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/165 "2010-12-09T18:20:34Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, you probably don’t need to worry about calling. [Seems](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/09/house-democrats-defy-obama-on-tax-cut-bill/?hpt=T1&iref=BN1) the house Dems have rejected the compromise: > > Wonder how this will play out. > > -XT Yeah, but it was a “non-binding” vote. Watch them cave, as always. Besides which, if they’re looking for an alternative, I still say Senator Warner’s is an excellent one, so it’s still worth calling and hammering that home. Obama is already aware of it and had been considering it. He needs to consider it harder. Democrats need to get off their collective asses and be as loud and as angry as the Tea Party people were. That’s how they got what they wanted and it’s the only way we’ll get what we want, apparently. CALL!! ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/166 "2010-12-09T18:24:04Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [From the NYT](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/09/house-democrats-voices-opposition-to-tax-cut-deal/) Yep. And not only that, but if every Republican votes for it, you can be sure the Democrats aren’t _nearly_ as cohesive, so there’ll be plenty of Blue Dogs and a few other Dems who’ll also vote for it, so it’ll pass this year no matter what. Basically, we’re screwed unless we can convince President Obama to reconsider a better alternative. The likelihood of that happening is slim to none, but I’m damn sure going to keep trying. I’ve been phoning and writing everyone who has a hand in this for weeks now. And I’m not giving up until it’s a done deal. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/167 "2010-12-09T18:24:45Z")
Who’s holding who hostage? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/168 "2010-12-09T19:28:51Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Yeah, but it was a “non-binding” vote. Watch them cave, as always. > > Besides which, if they’re looking for an alternative, I still say Senator Warner’s is an excellent one, so it’s still worth calling and hammering that home. Obama is already aware of it and had been considering it. He needs to consider it harder. Democrats need to get off their collective asses and be as loud and as angry as the Tea Party people were. That’s how they got what they wanted and it’s the only way we’ll get what we want, apparently. > > CALL!! Already did. Strange how idiots call Obama a socialist when he is a Republican clear through. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/169 "2010-12-09T20:24:35Z")
**Shayna** , while Sen. Warner’s proposed compromise certainly sounds reasonable, I don’t see where it addresses the restoration of the unemployment benefits extension. Whereas Obama’s compromise does. One might believe, after talking with their circle of friends and acquaintances and going to their usual blogs and news sources that it’s inconceivable that any elected official who wants to be re-elected would let vital benefits lapse for millions of eligible voters and thus the GOP would eventually have conceded on the unemployment comp. Such a person would understandably see the top-2% difference between Warner’s plan and Obama’s as pure concession to the GOP. One might also believe, after talking to Republican friends immersed in their blogs and news sources, that it isn’t so bloody obvious that the party of NO, the party of “let them eat cake”, the party of “death panels” would have eventually voted to extend unemployment comp. Such a person would equally understandably see the tradeoff of the top-2% tax cut for extended unemployment comp (the difference between Warner’s apparently Solomonic proposal and Obama’s purportedly spineless proposal) as a decent trade. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/170 "2010-12-09T20:26:07Z")
It almost feels like Obama and the Dems are playing “good-cop bad-cop” with the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/171 "2010-12-09T20:30:54Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > **Shayna** , while Sen. Warner’s proposed compromise certainly sounds reasonable, I don’t see where it addresses the restoration of the unemployment benefits extension. Whereas Obama’s compromise does. > > One might believe, after talking with their circle of friends and acquaintances and going to their usual blogs and news sources that it’s inconceivable that any elected official who wants to be re-elected would let vital benefits lapse for millions of eligible voters and thus the GOP would eventually have conceded on the unemployment comp. Such a person would understandably see the top-2% difference between Warner’s plan and Obama’s as pure concession to the GOP. > > One might also believe, after talking to Republican friends immersed in their blogs and news sources, that it isn’t so bloody obvious that the party of NO, the party of “let them eat cake”, the party of “death panels” would have eventually voted to extend unemployment comp. Such a person would equally understandably see the tradeoff of the top-2% tax cut for extended unemployment comp (the difference between Warner’s apparently Solomonic proposal and Obama’s purportedly spineless proposal) as a decent trade. Yeah great trade. Here’s another one: You lend me $20. But only give me $10 now. You still me another $10. And I owe you $10, so we’re even right? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/172 "2010-12-09T20:42:30Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > It almost feels like Obama and the Dems are playing “good-cop bad-cop” with the Republicans. Well, yeah, except that in that situation, it isn’t the cops who are handcuffed to the chair getting the shit kicked out of them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/173 "2010-12-09T21:39:23Z")
In a related story, and one which almost revives my hope of recovery from the entitlements hole into which we have dug ourselves. the GOP has managed to [beat back an effort to raise Social Security spending](http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/nation/stories/DN-socialsec_09nat.ART.State.Edition1.692742.html) in conjunction with Obama’s Social Security tax cut. I grant you, it is only a failure to increase spending rather than a real cut, but FWIW. This is the sort of thing I was hoping for with gridlock. Now if only Obama can keep from “compromising” on it and f\*king it up. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/174 "2010-12-09T21:44:33Z")
Hell yeah! Old people only need to eat once a day, maximum. And if they can’t afford to heat their house, it’s their own damn fault for not living in Florida or Arizona like they’re supposed to. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/175 "2010-12-09T21:53:19Z")
Right, right - whole bunches of old people are going to starve if they don’t get another 68 cents a day. :rolleyes: Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/176 "2010-12-09T22:11:23Z")
Yup. Glad the GOP beat that back by losing the vote 254-153… and saved $14 billion (until we get those top-end tax breaks through of course, that’ll only cost $70 bill per year)! Amazing that a $900 billion tax “compromise” is agreed to, but $14 billion to SS recipients is a no-go. And hey, the GOP killed the DADT repeal by losing that vote 57-43 as well! Great day for the republic. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/177 "2010-12-09T22:17:33Z")
I think there’s a fundamental difference in the way conservatives and liberals view the government’s relationship to the people that shapes their priorities as regards to these issues. Liberals seem to view the government, as representative of the people, as “owning” all the assets and income in the country. From this perspective, anything anyone has - no matter how they came by it - was effectively given to them by the government, either actively by transfer payments or passively by not taxing it. If the government gives something to someone or a group of people, the government is simply giving its own assets to these people. From this vantage point, it’s natural that liberals focus on who deserves to have what portion of the nation’s assets, and a tax cut is “giving” something to the people whose taxes were cut. Naturally they look askance at tax cuts for the rich, because why should the government “give” the rich anything? Conservatives view the government as having no inherent claim to anyone’s property. There’s a certain level of taxes that are required as a necessary evil. But when the government taxes people, it’s taking what really belongs to the people, and thus needs to be looked at long and hard before an assessment can be made that the need rises to the level that justifies seizing other people’s property. So it comes to tax cuts for the rich versus programs for the poor. Liberals focus on “giving” to the rich versus giving to the poor. Conservatives focus on taking people’s money to give other people versus letting people keep their own hard earned money. [I had half a mind to start a separate thread about this, but I don’t think I will have the energy to follow through on debating it.] ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/178 "2010-12-09T22:22:20Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > What I don’t understand is why the Democrats are so fucking bad at messaging, that they haven’t been pounding and pounding and pounding home the following message: > > 1. The Republicans who instituted these tax cuts are the ones who put the sunset date on them. BLAME THEM for the fact that they’re expiring now. > 2. The reason they had to put the sunset date on them is that that was the only way to skirt PAYGO rules. These tax cuts have been UNFUNDED for a decade. BLAME THEM for irresponsibly increasing the deficit and not “paying for” their legislation (same with the Medicare debacle!). > 3. Now that Republicans have an opportunity to make their tax cuts permanent for 98% of Americans, they refuse to, because their ultra rich buddies aren’t included. BLAME THEM for middle class taxes going back up to where they were. Well put. Puzzles me as well that the Dems suck so badly at messaging. As an independent voter, certainly one of my frustrations with Obama is that as a pragmatist cutting deals, he completely misses out on the messaging part or the quid pro quo. Eg, I’ll give you the 2 year extension for the wealthy in return for x, y and z. Make it clear cut and a good business decision. I see a black box and it’s not obvious to me that the quid pro quo is a no-brainer, and generally given my individual viewpoint am leaning to concluding in the parlance of Wall street “shit, that was a bad trade.” It should be clear to anyone that is not brain dead that our deficit is such that 1. spending needs to be cut significantly (and that means sacred cows like social security, medicare, the military, farm subsidies, etc. None of this cut waste bs) 2. taxes need to go up 3. The US needs to grow the economy more ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/179 "2010-12-09T22:45:29Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Over the long term, a big increase. The tax cut part was a temporary stimulus. The tax increases were permanent. Well by that logic did Bush cut taxes over the long term considering his tax cuts were all temporary? Over the long term taxation is a function of spending. If you can’t cut spending you have no business cutting taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266/180 "2010-12-09T22:50:11Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Already did. Strange how idiots call Obama a socialist when he is a Republican clear through. Call more. \*\*Shayna \*\*knows the game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-deals-caves-on-tax-cut-extensions/563266.md?page=10)