# Obama: DHS will issue work visas to young undocumented immigrants **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310 "2012-06-16T02:07:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/281 "2012-06-18T16:50:45Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > You can’t just turn down a qualified US citizen in order to get an \*over-\*qualified foreign national, can you? H1B requirements are (surprise!) [rather complicated](http://www.webcitation.org/5rxYX1rWE), but sort of, yes; if the employer says it needs a candidate with a masters’ degree, it could probably get away with requiring one. However, the “prevailing wage” thing is based on figures collected by the Department of Labor, not the employer’s own numbers, so unless the job is highly specialized (say, a widget-designing job where you’re the only company making those widgets) it would be virtually impossible to get around that. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/282 "2012-06-18T17:11:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > H1B requirements are (surprise!) [rather complicated](http://www.webcitation.org/5rxYX1rWE), but sort of, yes; if the employer says it needs a candidate with a masters’ degree, it could probably get away with requiring one. However, the “prevailing wage” thing is based on figures collected by the Department of Labor, not the employer’s own numbers, so unless the job is highly specialized (say, a widget-designing job where you’re the only company making those widgets) it would be virtually impossible to get around that. Okay. I kind of get that. But how about the scenario I mentioned where the job requirements specifically call for a BA/BS, and the foreign national has a MA/MS? Can they turn down the ‘qualified’ Bachelor for the over-qualified Master? (considering that they’re not going to pay any more for the Master) Or did I not understand again? That’s highly possible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/283 "2012-06-18T17:16:48Z")
Probably not. The foreign worker has to be paid the same as the employer’s other employees in the same role with the same or similar qualifications. So unless _all_ their similarly situated employees are H1B holders- highly unlikely, for obvious reasons- or the employer was able to hire a couple of US masters’ grads at a depressed wage, I can’t see how. By way of example, my (Indian) cousin is a Microsoft systems engineer on an H1B, and is paid considerably _more_ than her (domestic) predecessor because of H1B rules; her predecessor was grossly underpaid but apparently never bothered to ask for a raise, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/284 "2012-06-18T17:24:12Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > That’s why Romney isn’t doing everything he can to say absolutely nothing about this issue. I’m sure you meant “is doing”, and I agree with you that, even though he has pronounced some words like “immigration” and “review” over the last few days, he hasn’t said anything substantive. Ever get the feeling that Hispanics are starting to feel like Floridians did 8 years ago: “Hey, the next president is up to us!” [sub]Marco Rubio 2016![/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/285 "2012-06-18T18:54:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The employer has to demonstrate that it _can’t_ hire a US worker (at the prevailing wage for the job) before it can sponsor a foreigner for a work visa, so that situation doesn’t occur. This is not true for work visas such as H-1B; the employer can hire anyone who meets the job requirements, as long as the job requires at least a bachelor’s degree or greater in a particular field, and they are paying at least the prevailing wage for the location, type, and level of work. It is true for the labor certification process, though (the first step in most employment-based green cards). ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/286 "2012-06-18T18:59:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Probably not. The foreign worker has to be paid the same as the employer’s other employees in the same role with the same or similar qualifications. So unless _all_ their similarly situated employees are H1B holders- highly unlikely, for obvious reasons- or the employer was able to hire a couple of US masters’ grads at a depressed wage, I can’t see how. True, but plenty of H-1B workers in this scenario are in fact graduates of U.S. universities anyway. And the employer is required to post a notification at the worksite that they are hiring H-1B workers, for what position, and at what salary, and I think once in 13+ years of preparing H-1B petitions have I ever heard of another employee at the worksite complaining about it. (It turned out to be an unqualified employee in another positionwho wantes to apply for the job.) It’s pretty rare that we get client companies who want to pay a prospective H-1B employee less than the prevailing wage. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/287 "2012-06-19T10:04:53Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > I’m not yet convinced of this–specifically in highly skilled positions. (I’m not going to quibble about manual/menial labor jobs.) > > Is there some proof somewhere that a recently graduated chemical engineer from Mumbai is: > > A) Better qualified than one from Stanford, and > B) Willing to work for less than that same Stanford grad? YMMV, but my father told me he preferred to hire engineers from the local school in Mexico over MIT. They were better at the job and cheaper. This was for jobs on the border that could be performed either in the US or Mexico, although usually both. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/288 "2012-06-19T13:18:01Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > This is not true for work visas such as H-1B; the employer can hire anyone who meets the job requirements, as long as the job requires at least a bachelor’s degree or greater in a particular field, and they are paying at least the prevailing wage for the location, type, and level of work. It is true for the labor certification process, though (the first step in most employment-based green cards). Eh? The employer has to file an LCA for an H-1B. Isn’t that part of the labor certification process? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/289 "2012-06-19T14:22:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Eh? The employer has to file an LCA for an H-1B. Isn’t that part of the labor certification process? No, LCA stands for Labor Condition Application. Labor certification is a totally different thing, requiring recruitment in several places and documenting that there are no available US workers who meet the minimum qualifications for the job. The required LCA worksite posting only notifies other workers that the employer plans to employ someone in H-1B status. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/290 "2012-06-19T15:39:50Z")
Oh, okay. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/291 "2012-06-19T16:44:25Z")
Meanwhile, [Sheriff Arpaio’s office arrests a 6-year-old girl on suspicion of being an undocumented immigrant.](http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2012/06/16/20120616mcso-illegal-immigration-arrest-girl.html#ixzz1y4UhjzxR) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/292 "2012-06-19T17:07:47Z")
I don’t see how that’s relevant, notwithstanding Arpaio’s grandstanding. What were they supposed to do with her? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/293 "2012-06-19T17:10:38Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > If America’s economy is sputtering, it’s precisely because of this sense of entitlement. We’ve somehow got it in our head we are owed a middle class lifestyle simply by virtue of being “American”, and if we walk out of college and into the big bad world and are not immediately rewarded for the minimal effort it takes not to get kicked out of university with an ace job, we just give up, move back in with our parents, and play Diablo III until our eyes rot out. We all deserve a modest middle class lifestyle by virtue of us peons being the ones who make the American rich, the mega-richest richey riches of all human history. It’s not much to ask. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/294 "2012-06-19T20:50:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t see how that’s relevant, notwithstanding Arpaio’s grandstanding. What were they supposed to do with her? What? How dare you read the article and use your brain. You were just supposed to see the name “Arpaio” and “arrests a 6-year-old girl” and start yelling “What a MONSTER!” “How could he be so black-hearted?!!” Does the man have NO humanity!!!" “I bet he even water boarded her to make her talk!!!” That’s the kind of stupid he wants to evoke. Good for you for calling him on it. There’s plenty to disagree on with regards to the illegal immigration, and dropping in little partisan-crafted bombs like that are the opposite of helpful. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/295 "2012-06-19T20:53:02Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > We all deserve a modest middle class lifestyle by virtue of us peons being the ones who make the American rich, the mega-richest richey riches of all human history. It’s not much to ask. If you work hard enough helping these Richie Riches they will pay you more than enough to enjoy a modest middle-class lifestyle. If you don’t, you can continue to Master Diablo and ask your parents for money. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/296 "2012-06-19T20:59:46Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > If America’s economy is sputtering, it’s precisely because of this sense of entitlement. We’ve somehow got it in our head we are owed a middle class lifestyle simply by virtue of being “American”, and if we walk out of college and into the big bad world and are not immediately rewarded for the minimal effort it takes not to get kicked out of university with an ace job, we just give up, move back in with our parents, and play Diablo III until our eyes rot out. > > Maybe some competition will put the fight back into us. Most of us are here for one reason- our ancestors were broke and figured it’d be better to fight it out in some crazy foreign land that rot away without opportunity. And so we started businesses, invented stuff, built a great university system, and created a vibrant world-leading economy. > > So why do you think we now get to coast along, enjoying a top-of-the-line lifestyle into perpetuity while doing nothing more than punching the clock and waiting for the pension to kick in? So you went to college? What does that mean? Managing to graduate college takes some bare minimum persistence, but it’s it’s not really the kind of laurels you can expect to rest comfortably on. Awesome! You should deliver this speech to kids graduating today. Even better than David McCullough, Jr.'s recent commencement speech. > [@even\_sven](#): > > If illegal immigrants take your job…_figure out something else to do_. Start a business. Retrain yourself. Move to someplace with more opportunity. Work for lower pay. Fight it out. My uncle realized that house painting was an unsustainable industry for him, so he sought retraining and is now a teacher. He didn’t just curse Mexico and give up, he figured something out. > > Put more simply, if an illegal immigrant is taking your job, _they have somehow figured out how to do it better or more efficiently than you_ and economically, it’s better for them to do it and for you to do whatever it is that you are efficient at. And if your only response is “But, but, but I’m an American goddammit,” well, America is going to have a lot of soul searching to do in today’s global economy. This I agree with, as well, from a personal responsibility standpoint. By while I agree with it along those lines, I don’t think it is incumbent upon Americans to not demand that the border is secure and that illegal activity be allowed to artificially deflate wages. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/297 "2012-06-19T22:19:55Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Would it be okay in your view for a state governor to tell the police not to enforce speeding laws under the guise that it isn’t really a crime, just a civil infraction? I wouldn’t have a problem with the governor telling the police not to bother pulling over speeders who are less than 5mph over the speed limit though. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/298 "2012-06-19T23:42:54Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I wouldn’t have a problem with the governor telling the police not to bother pulling over speeders who are less than 5mph over the speed limit though. So 75 in a 70 zone isn’t a problem, but 76 in a 70 zone is? Where do you draw the line? 77? 79? 80? 82? Seriously, I take your point, but I’d much rather see real reform than “the law is X, but we’re going to do (X-3) to be nice and / or to be more practical.” Of course, I’d also like a pony that would recite audiobooks in Sir John Gielgood’s voice as we canter along, and buy me beer whenever I’m thirsty. We seem to be stuck in a system whose stated values (law and order! no illegal immigration! American citizens are special!) conflict with our actual values (cheap produce! cheap labor! visually obvious underclass, so the cheap labor doesn’t come from me and mine!). Nobody, even on the left, is saying “I’d be willing to double or triple my grocery bill to get this sorted.” Until they do—I’m guessing a couple of weeks after never—nothing substantive is going to change. What I really don’t want to see is any creeping in the direction of “permanent guest workers” as in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere mentioned upthread, but it’s virtually the only solution that doesn’t rock either set of values. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/299 "2012-06-20T00:32:40Z")
Why would the left be the ones who want to pay $6 for a tomato? We’re not the ones who think illegal immigrants are artificially depressing wages. Anyway, the problem with $6 tomatoes is that we’ll just buy them from Brazil or someplace. I’m not entirely sure that putting the giants of American agriculture out of business is a horrible idea from an economic standpoint, given how much we have to subsidize it even at current tomato prices, but I also don’t think turning all our arable land into empty space is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/300 "2012-06-20T00:49:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why would the left be the ones who want to pay $6 for a tomato? We’re not the ones who think illegal immigrants are artificially depressing wages. Please read more carefully. “Even on the left,” I said, which happens to be the side of the political fence I’m on. And of course nobody WANTS to pay $6 for a tomato, but you would think people would weigh the whole complex system and think “given the option of paying $6 for a tomato or having an entrenched underclass, I’ll take the $6 tomato.” And the problem isn’t (just) American giant agribusinesses, it’s the fact that human labor is undervalued, and in almost every field, both American businesses and American consumers exploit cheap labor by weighing the monetary cost of goods and services more heavily than the other factors. Granted, a lot of us don’t have the money to make better choices, and granted, figuring out the longterm intangible costs is difficult to impossible. In other words, I wasn’t advocating the destruction of agribusiness. I was pining unrealistically for a model that would value human beings’ time and efforts and distribute the costs of such valuation more evenly throughout society. I know it’s not going to happen, but I can dream. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310.md?page=16)