# Obama: DHS will issue work visas to young undocumented immigrants **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310 "2012-06-16T02:07:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/81 "2012-06-16T18:25:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In this case, because you were 13 years old when you arrived and probably didn’t even know what a visa _was_. Or hey, maybe you were 2 years old when you arrived and have absolutely no memory of how you got here. My office even had a case a year or so ago of a guy who had absoluetly no idea he wasn’t born in the U.S. until he tried to apply for Social Security benefits after he retired and was unable to document his U.S. citizenship/immigration status. (It did work out for him in the end, though, via an older provision called [registry.)](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=a2ad3a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=a2ad3a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/82 "2012-06-16T18:28:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What is the logic that an undocumented Nicaraguan is entitled to go to a California college and a lower rate than someone who lives in a neighboring state like Nevada? I think you guys are getting a bit beyond the scope of the thread, but the point of in-state tuition rates is to reflect the fact that state residents fund higher education via taxation already. Nicaraguan kid’s parents have paid some if not all California state taxes; Nevada kid’s parents haven’t. > [@](#): > > We all pay for the choices our parents make. Good and bad. Under current law (until I’m President ), the kid is entitled to stay. The parents are not. So the parents can either chose to move with their child, as people do every day, or they can have him stay with family members. The new deportation regulation only applies to the kid, so I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. If you think the kid is entitled to stay, you are presumably in favor of the new regulation. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/83 "2012-06-16T18:30:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > One is too many. No? How many would you personally like to pay for? For every undocumented worker who might be getting welfare, my guess is there are at least 100 undocumented workers paying taxes who will never be able to receive SS benefits or Medicare or any number of other benefits they are paying for none-the-less. That excess money will go to YOUR benefits. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/84 "2012-06-16T18:33:10Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > For every undocumented worker who might be getting welfare, my guess is there are at least 100 undocumented workers paying taxes who will never be able to receive SS benefits or Medicare or any number of other benefits they are paying for none-the-less. That excess money will go to YOUR benefits. If there are any at all. I’m not sure what his point is, since the citation made it clear that undocumented immigrants aren’t eligible to collect welfare. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/85 "2012-06-16T18:36:53Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > For every undocumented worker who might be getting welfare, my guess is there are at least 100 undocumented workers paying taxes who will never be able to receive SS benefits or Medicare or any number of other benefits they are paying for none-the-less. That excess money will go to YOUR benefits. Assuming that’s true for a second you’re talking about a small percent of what they pay compared to the many benefits they get for just living here, some of which I mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/86 "2012-06-16T18:38:56Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > How many undocumented immigrants do you think are on the welfare rolls? :dubious: Stop with the [myths](http://blog.chron.com/immigration/2008/01/illegal-immigrants-on-welfare-fact-or-fiction/), please. Show me where I said anything about “welfare.”:rolleyes: And, feel free to address the part where the illegal immigrant, now graduated from community college after previously completing 12 years of free education, is justified in competing for a job with my son–a citizen. And, “undocumented” my ass. “Illegal.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/87 "2012-06-16T18:43:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think you guys are getting a bit beyond the scope of the thread, but the point of in-state tuition rates is to reflect the fact that state residents fund higher education via taxation already. Nicaraguan kid’s parents have paid some if not all California state taxes; Nevada kid’s parents haven’t. At least there’s a logic to it. But I contend that they already get more than pay in. Also, if a school receives federal dollars that shouldn’t be allowed to discount tuition for illegals. Or hell, have them attend the school in the first place. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The new deportation regulation only applies to the kid, so I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. If you think the kid is entitled to stay, you are presumably in favor of the new regulation. I acknowledge that he is able to stay, I do not favor it. While I feel for the kid, the contorted interpretation of the 14th Amendment causes situations like this and incentivises people to do whatever they can to have a kid born on our soil. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/88 "2012-06-16T18:46:08Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > Show me where I said anything about “welfare.”:rolleyes: > [@Rysdad](#): > > These aren’t onion pickers we’re talking about. These are people who have, illegally, benefitted from our educational system, probably graduated from college (with in-state tuition rates), **utilized social services** and medical facilities supported by citizens’ taxes, and who are about to (if they haven’t already) taken jobs that are in short supply. > [@](#): > > And, feel free to address the part where the illegal immigrant, now graduated from community college after previously completing 12 years of free education, is justified in competing for a job with my son–a citizen. May the best man win. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/89 "2012-06-16T18:49:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > At least there’s a logic to it. But I contend that they already get more than pay in. Also, if a school receives federal dollars that shouldn’t be allowed to discount tuition for illegals. Or hell, have them attend the school in the first place. Why not? > [@](#): > > I acknowledge that he is able to stay, I do not favor it. While I feel for the kid, the contorted interpretation of the 14th Amendment causes situations like this and incentivises people to do whatever they can to have a kid born on our soil. We’re not talking about kids who are born here. Those kids are citizens and this proposed regulation doesn’t apply to them. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/90 "2012-06-16T18:51:34Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > There’s absolutely no requirement to renew an O visa from outside the U.S. In fact, I’ll be renewing one next week for someone who is currently in the U.S. Same for a TN, though with a TN in particular it often makes sense to renew at the border because you can have it adjudicated on the spot. Sigh. **Eva Luna** , I wish we had consulted you in real life when all of this was going on. I can no longer remember why we thought it was necessary, but I do recall that our case was a mess from start to finish. I retract that objection to Obama’s plan, then. ETA: It might have been the on-the-spot adjudication aspect, since that’s functionally what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/91 "2012-06-16T18:53:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And then of course there is health care, where they use emergence rooms like clinics; where they can get all manner of care and not pay a friggin dime. This is one of the reasons that so many hospitals in the Southwest have had to close their doors. It also raises the price of healthcare for the rest of us. A hospital has to extract more money from those who they can make pay, via insurance and copays, because they know that there is a chunk of people who get the whole kit and boodle for free. They don’t get care for free, any more than any other broke person. They get emergency care without regard for their ability to pay, and just like any other broke person, they get billed for it. Sure, the hospital will almost certainly have to write off the bill, but I don’t see why it makes a difference to you _who_ is getting free care. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/92 "2012-06-16T19:07:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What appeals court? I gave you _a SCOTUS decision_ referencing the executive’s enforcement discretion. This one: The opinion from the Kansas Court of Appeals came in the Barton County case involving convicted drug dealer Nicholas L. Martinez. The ruling found that while the laws of the United States make it illegal to enter the United States without authorization, being in the United States after entering illegally is “not necessarily a crime.” The trial court judge had ordered Martinez to jail on the grounds he is an illegal alien, the report said. But the appeals court overturned that decision. “[Federal law] declares an alien’s unsanctioned entry into the United States to be a crime. While Congress has criminalized illegal entry into this country, it has not made the continued presence of an illegal alien in the United States a crime unless the illegal alien has previously been deported and has again entered this country illegally,” the court opinion said. “[Federal law] makes it a felony for an alien who has been deported to thereafter reenter the United States or at anytime thereafter be found in the United States.” The court ruling explained that those entering the United States illegally are subject to deportation, which can be based on “any number of factors.” Judge Patrick McAnany, who wrote the opinion: “However, while an illegal alien is subject to deportation, that person’s ongoing presence in the United States is and of itself is not a crime unless that person had been previously deported and regained illegal entry into this country,” the ruling, written by Judge Patrick McAnany, said." _What?!_ Now if that isn’t some kind of perverted, twisted legal reasoning, I don’t know what is. “You committed an offense, but you haven’t been charged for it, and since Congress hasn’t _explicitly stated_ that your offense is still an offense, then it’s not.” Is it any wonder that immigration law is being ignored, since, once you’re here, you’re here? What would it take…the Attorney General issuing a John Doe/Jane Roe warrant for anyone who had entered the country illegally? I don’t even know if that could be done. I know Holder would never do it. He’s got his own legal battles. So, no, I wasn’t addressing executive privilege nor a SCOTUS ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/93 "2012-06-16T19:08:13Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Sigh. **Eva Luna** , I wish we had consulted you in real life when all of this was going on. I can no longer remember why we thought it was necessary, but I do recall that our case was a mess from start to finish. I retract that objection to Obama’s plan, then. > > ETA: It might have been the on-the-spot adjudication aspect, since that’s functionally what happened. O visas can’t be adjudicated on the spot; the O petition has to be adjudicated by USCIS first, but once it’s approved, Canadian citizens are visa exempt and can apply for admission in O status on the spot with the approval notice for the petition. TNs are much less complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/94 "2012-06-16T19:11:46Z")
Farmer Jane, See if you can come up with anything that might fall under the umbrella of “social services” that isn’t welfare. I’ll give you a minute. Time’s up. See where you went wrong there? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/95 "2012-06-16T19:22:13Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > Judge Patrick McAnany, who wrote the opinion: “However, while an illegal alien is subject to deportation, that person’s ongoing presence in the United States is and of itself is not a crime unless that person had been previously deported and regained illegal entry into this country,” the ruling, written by Judge Patrick McAnany, said." > > _What?!_ > > Now if that isn’t some kind of perverted, twisted legal reasoning, I don’t know what is. “You committed an offense, but you haven’t been charged for it, and since Congress hasn’t _explicitly stated_ that your offense is still an offense, then it’s not.” The court was applying the federal statute and controlling SCOTUS precedent. It’s not “perverted, twisted legal reasoning”; it’s the law. Do I really need to spell out the importance of specificity in criminal statutes? Do you want your state to be able to put you in jail for forgetting to, say, renew your vehicle registration? I don’t understand why you’re referencing that case in the first place. Immigration law is the province of the federal government, not the states. A state court ruling on an immigration issue is not controlling precedent. However, that decision was in accordance with the federal law. > [@](#): > > So, no, I wasn’t addressing executive privilege nor a SCOTUS ruling. Executive privilege doesn’t mean what you seem to think it does, for the record. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/96 "2012-06-16T19:22:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Picking those two states at random, of course, and not because of their somewhat-greater-than-average populations or numbers of undocumented workers, or anything. 😉 I picked border states because of the obvious. Look at the budget problems California is in. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/97 "2012-06-16T19:23:17Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > O visas can’t be adjudicated on the spot; the O petition has to be adjudicated by USCIS first, but once it’s approved, Canadian citizens are visa exempt and can apply for admission in O status on the spot with the approval notice for the petition. TNs are much less complicated. Hm. I don’t know what it was then. It was for a British citizen, and my understanding was that a US consular official in London had some decision-making powers over the length of time for the renewal, but I clearly had some misinformation to start with, so I’m not a reliable witness. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/98 "2012-06-16T19:24:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I picked border states because of the obvious. Look at the budget problems California is in. Yeah, what a [bummer](http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-05-03/californias-illegal-immigrant-shortage). ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/99 "2012-06-16T19:26:00Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > This one: > > The opinion from the Kansas Court of Appeals came in the Barton County case involving convicted drug dealer Nicholas L. Martinez. > > The ruling found that while the laws of the United States make it illegal to enter the United States without authorization, being in the United States after entering illegally is “not necessarily a crime.” > > The trial court judge had ordered Martinez to jail on the grounds he is an illegal alien, the report said. > > But the appeals court overturned that decision. > > “[Federal law] declares an alien’s unsanctioned entry into the United States to be a crime. While Congress has criminalized illegal entry into this country, it has not made the continued presence of an illegal alien in the United States a crime unless the illegal alien has previously been deported and has again entered this country illegally,” the court opinion said. “[Federal law] makes it a felony for an alien who has been deported to thereafter reenter the United States or at anytime thereafter be found in the United States.” > > The court ruling explained that those entering the United States illegally are subject to deportation, which can be based on “any number of factors.” > > Judge Patrick McAnany, who wrote the opinion: “However, while an illegal alien is subject to deportation, that person’s ongoing presence in the United States is and of itself is not a crime unless that person had been previously deported and regained illegal entry into this country,” the ruling, written by Judge Patrick McAnany, said." > > _What?!_ > > Now if that isn’t some kind of perverted, twisted legal reasoning, I don’t know what is. “You committed an offense, but you haven’t been charged for it, and since Congress hasn’t _explicitly stated_ that your offense is still an offense, then it’s not.” > > Is it any wonder that immigration law is being ignored, since, once you’re here, you’re here? > > What would it take…the Attorney General issuing a John Doe/Jane Roe warrant for anyone who had entered the country illegally? I don’t even know if that could be done. I know Holder would never do it. He’s got his own legal battles. > > So, no, I wasn’t addressing executive privilege nor a SCOTUS ruling. The Court upheld the law as written? How dare they! And to think if it hadn’t been for your superb legal analysis, this gross miscarriage of justice may have gone undetected! ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310/100 "2012-06-16T19:26:28Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > Farmer Jane, > > See if you can come up with anything that might fall under the umbrella of “social services” that isn’t welfare. > > I’ll give you a minute. > > Time’s up. > > See where you went wrong there? Clearly you and I have different interpretations of the word ‘welfare’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dhs-will-issue-work-visas-to-young-undocumented-immigrants/625310.md?page=6)