# Obama Doesn't Remember How Big the Debt Is **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 20, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229 "2012-09-20T01:40:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/101 "2012-09-20T18:24:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I refrained from pointing out at the end of my previous post that most of the ills I mentioned can be traced to some offshoot of liberal activism. There was no need to point it out since your choice of examples made it obvious. I was pointing out that your rhetoric is more than a little ridiculous: you used a straight-out-of-1980 complaint about criminals roaming the streets when crime keeps going down and sentences keep getting harsher, and your statements about intrusive government should perhaps be tempered when Republicans in a bunch of states have actually decided women who want abortions need to have ultrasounds. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/102 "2012-09-20T18:27:23Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Not according to Rasmussen. Most recently, [they report that 35% of Americans say we’re heading in the right direction](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/right_direction_or_wrong_track)– almost double the amount from a year ago. Six percentage points up from this time last month, and eleven points up from the beginning of the year. What does that even mean? Compared to what? A worse-case scenario? In that event even I’d say we’re “moving” in the right direction. That question is too vague to have any significant meaning. Drill down and ask about things like jobs and the economy and schools and crime and I’ll bet you get an entirely different answer. > [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Maybe you meant 14% of Obama’s job approval rating, since he’s the one running it. Oh wait, [he’s right now in the ballpark of 50% approval](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html). Nope, wasn’t talking about that either. Can’t imagine where you got that from, but I’m guessing you just wanted to brag that for once it wasn’t O 44, R 47. 😃 > [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > So that being said, I’d love to see where you’re getting the 14% number. Maybe I missed something. I honestly want to see where only 14% of people are satisfied with how this country is being run. Okay, well, here, let me show you…:: hmm, could have sworn I said it was the congressional approval rating. Oh, wait, I did! It’s right up there in black and white! :: But guess what…it’s even worse than I thought! Now it’s down to [10%](http://www.gallup.com/poll/156662/Congress-Approval-Ties-Time-Low.aspx)! Like I said, the idea the populace is running the country is a fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/103 "2012-09-20T18:29:51Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > That question is too vague to have any significant meaning. I agree it doesn’t mean much of anything, but if you’re going to bring up Congressional approval ratings and conflate them with “how the country is being run,” you can’t handwave away that cite. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/104 "2012-09-20T18:35:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The things I listed are already going on in this country. How you can say we don’t have one like I described is anybody’s guess. > > But be that as it may, perhaps you haven’t noticed but only 14% of the populace is at least satisfied with the way the country is being run. The idea that we have any real input as to the direction the country moves in other than in the most general, ill-defined way is fiction. People are not happy with the way schools are being run and there’s nothing they can do about it. They’re not happy with the way government is intruding on their personal product and diet choices and there is nothing they can do about it. They’re not happy with the way criminals in their late twenties are roaming the streets with multiple serious crimes on their rap sheets and there’s nothing they can do about it, etc., etc., etc. > > Again, the idea that we decide how the government operates is a fiction. A happy fiction, but a fiction nonetheless. I guess I should have bolded, so as to avoid any confusion or inherent problems with comprehension. That’s my mistake, I should have known better and I apologize for not taking all factors into account when I made my previous post. You specifically stated that you have no recourse against government. Clearly, in the USA, you do; it’s a right that is specifically written into the first amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/105 "2012-09-20T18:41:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There was no need to point it out since your choice of examples made it obvious. I was pointing out that your rhetoric is more than a little ridiculous: you used a straight-out-of-1980 complaint about criminals roaming the streets when crime keeps going down and sentences keep getting harsher, and your statements about intrusive government should perhaps be tempered when Republicans in a bunch of states have actually decided women who want abortions need to have ultrasounds. Oh, please. Take a look at some current day crime shows like _48 Hours_ and take note of how many murders are committed by assholes with violent crimes, including rape and murder on occasion, who are legally out of prison and still relatively young men. You guys love to claim the crime rate is down but I don’t know anyone who believes it. But just for shits and giggles, lets assume it is. Just think how much lower it would be if criminals weren’t being kicked loose at every opportunity. The reason sentences keep getting harsher is because it’s become almost impossible to keep people in jail. Additionally, drug crime is worse than it was in the 80s; the quality of schooling and the idiotic practices therein are worse than they were in the 80s; and government is unquestionably intruding upon our lives and attempting to control our life choices than it did in the 80s. So sorry, but I’m afraid your transparent Reagan-era dodge just doesn’t stand up to the reality of current day life in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/106 "2012-09-20T18:43:56Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Okay, well, here, let me show you…:: hmm, could have sworn I said it was the congressional approval rating. Oh, wait, I did! It’s right up there in black and white! :: You didn’t. Here’s the post of yours that I was drawing the “14%” from and was legitimately confused about what you were talking about: > [@Starving Artist](#): > > The things I listed are already going on in this country. How you can say we don’t have one like I described is anybody’s guess. > > But be that as it may, perhaps you haven’t noticed but only 14% of the populace is at least satisfied with the way the country is being run. The idea that we have any real input as to the direction the country moves in other than in the most general, ill-defined way is fiction. People are not happy with the way schools are being run and there’s nothing they can do about it. They’re not happy with the way government is intruding on their personal product and diet choices and there is nothing they can do about it. They’re not happy with the way criminals in their late twenties are roaming the streets with multiple serious crimes on their rap sheets and there’s nothing they can do about it, etc., etc., etc. > > Again, the idea that we decide how the government operates is a fiction. A happy fiction, but a fiction nonetheless. So after I read that comment of yours, I did some Googling to see what sort of polls had been done that show “only 14% of the populace…[are] at least satisfied with the way the country is being run.” I subsequently linked to a couple of polls that showed people’s approval of how things are either headed or what they thought of the president’s job. I linked to them to show that neither of them are at 14%. I’m sorry you didn’t understand that the reason behind my posting them was to show you that more than 14% \*are \*at least satisfied with the way the country is being run-- either because they either approve of the job the president is currently doing, or because they think it’s heading in the right direction. Clear? But thank you for finally clarifying your initial “14%” as being about Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/107 "2012-09-20T18:51:46Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I guess I should have bolded, so as to avoid any confusion or inherent problems with comprehension. That’s my mistake, I should have known better and I apologize for not taking all factors into account when I made my previous post. > > You specifically stated that you have no recourse against government. Clearly, in the USA, you do; it’s a right that is specifically written into the first amendment. Perhaps it has escaped your notice, but people have largely been singularly unable to do a friggin’ thing about it when a school refuses to take action against a bully and won’t discuss it with the press, when a school sends a kid home for wearing Rosary beads, when the police charge adolescent girls with distributing child porn for emailing pictures of their boobs to a friend, when kids who are graduating from high school are functionally illiterate and can’t perform the most basic math calculations, and, like I said to **Marley** , when violent criminals are being kicked loose on multiple convictions after serving a fraction of their sentences, etc., etc., etc. I submit that if they think about it, people are not at all happy with “the direction” the country is going, and that they justifiably feel powerless to do anything about it. YMOV. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/108 "2012-09-20T18:54:19Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Take a look at some current day crime shows like _48 Hours_ I’d rather consult facts and crime statistics. You know, stuff that measures data rather than trying to produce dramatic television. > [@](#): > > You guys love to claim the crime rate is down but I don’t know anyone who believes it. In part that’s because Republicans have been scaring the shit out of them with the same old nonsense about crime for several decades. (And to be fair, “tough on crime” works for most politicians and so does… :rolleyes: watching “48 Hours.”) There have been studies showing that people really believe the violent crime rate keeps going up even though the facts say it’s been going down for a couple of decades. > [@](#): > > Just think how much lower it would be if criminals weren’t being kicked loose at every opportunity. They aren’t. Do some reading about mandatory sentencing laws. > [@](#): > > Additionally, drug crime is worse than it was in the 80s I believe _arrests_ for drug crimes is up, nevermind how counterproductive that is. I’d need a cite that actual crime is up. > [@](#): > > the quality of schooling and the idiotic practices therein are worse than they were in the 80s I wonder if that’s at all related to cuts in government revenue and unfunded mandates. Nah, that’s probably a coincidence. > [@](#): > > and government is unquestionably intruding upon our lives and attempting to control our life choices than it did in the 80s. Which is why Republicans have been pushing for more and more liberal social poilcies over the last couple of decades: they don’t want the government legislating issues like abortion or gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/109 "2012-09-20T18:58:35Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > But thank you for finally clarifying your initial “14%” as being about Congress. I didn’t “finally” clarify it. I stated it clearly and unequivocally in post 85. To wit: > [@](#): > > If you guys want to know why conservatives seem to think the way they do, I can tell you…at least to a certain degree, as I don’t speak for us all. But just like with politicians on your side, our guys don’t always do what we’d want them to do. But it’s the difference in philosophy as I described it that accounts for the reason why conservatives seem less concerned about Republican deficits than Democrat deficits. Conservatives know their guys aren’t motivated by a strong desire to increase taxes at every opportunity and have to trust, as much as is possible in a representative form of government, that their guys will vote and act accordingly. **However, it’s not for nothing that Congress has a 14% or whatever it is approval rating** , and lots of stuff gets done by the people running this govenment that most of its people don’t like. And that applies to Republicans every bit as much as it does to Democrats. Sorry you missed it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/110 "2012-09-20T18:59:42Z")
And now I’m out of here for a while. It’s been fun, but I got other threads to look at and other chit to do. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/111 "2012-09-20T19:05:53Z")
Aw, gee whiz, just when things were getting really tiresome… ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/112 "2012-09-20T19:08:44Z")
Oh, so _Congress_ has a 14% approval rating. The obstructionist, quarreling, divisive, hostage-taking, lunatic Tea Party Congress. Yes, I can certainly see that with a 14% approval rating. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/113 "2012-09-20T19:25:30Z")
Here’s some cites to back up what **Marley23** was saying about crime rates: [A table showing crime rates and frequencies from 1960 to 2010.](http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm) You can see the increase, and then the decline, in crime rates of all sorts. [FBI table showing change between 2010 and 2011 for those same categories. The decline continues.](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/preliminary-annual-ucr-jan-dec-2011/data-tables/table-1) In most categories (including murder, which is the crime that has always been most reliably reported), crime rates are down to levels not seen since the mid-1960s. And in the remaining categories, we’re down to 1970s rates. [They’ve done studies of what happens to crime rates in different countries in the decades after lead is removed from gasoline.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/07/AR2007070701073_pf.html) I’m not saying it’s the cause, but our experience is consistent with what’s happened in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/114 "2012-09-20T19:26:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > We also don’t like the ever-increasing effort to shift the tax burden to the rich. We feel it is unfair, as our belief in individual responsibilty leads us to believe that everyone should pitch to help run the country no matter how modest their circumstances, and we feel it discourages the hard work, risk-taking, accomplishment and innovation that we all benefit from, with the result that we all end up clock-watching wage slaves surrounded by products and services created by the same. Wake me up when the increases in after-tax incomes in our society are not [much higher for the very rich than for everyone else](http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3220). Then I might think that you have a point. Heck, wake me up when the tax burden is actually shifted more to the rich because we tax them more severely (rather than it shifting more to the rich simply because their income share grows and grows). Finally, how high does the reward for “risk-taking, accomplishment and innovation that we all benefit from” have to go before we can actually consider actually implementing policies that might make it smaller? How about, we hold a contest each year and give all of society’s income to those who are voted as the top 100 best innovators and then the rest get nothing. Is that good enough for you? Seriously, how far do you want this “winner take all” society to go? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/115 "2012-09-20T19:28:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’d rather consult facts and crime statistics. You know, stuff that measures data rather than trying to produce dramatic television > > In part that’s because Republicans have been scaring the shit out of them with the same old nonsense about crime for several decades. (And to be fair, “tough on crime” works for most politicians and so does… :rolleyes: watching “48 Hours.”) . _48 Hours_ is not “dramatic television.” It’s real life and it simply follows homicide detectives as they attempt to solve murders. The perps and their records are real. > [@Marley23](#): > > There have been studies showing that people really believe the violent crime rate keeps going up even though the facts say it’s been going down for a couple of decades. Define violent crime. For example (not saying it’s so) it’s entirely possible that schoolyard fights and neighborhood/barroom assualts and rapes have gone down, while drive-by shootings and drug-related violence and murders have gone up. And even if rates are down, think how much lower they’d be if these newer types of violent crime weren’t so widespread and prevalent. People aren’t fearful of violent crime because of Republicans, they’re fearful of it because for the most part it’s touched their lives or the lives of someone they know. > [@Marley23](#): > > I wonder if that’s at all related to cuts in government revenue and unfunded mandates. No, it’s the result of idiotic notions such as to fail kids harms their self-esteem so pass them regardless. And of teacher’s unions that make it impossible to get rid of bad teachers. And the breakdown of family coherence, where kids grow up without proper adult supervision and proper values and anyone to make sure they do their schoolwork. > [@Marley23](#): > > Which is why Republicans have been pushing for more and more liberal social poilcies over the last couple of decades: they don’t want the government legislating issues like abortion or gay marriage. With regard to abortion, many conservatives regard it as murder. And even worse, as the murder of innocent creatures who may very well experience pain and had no say in their creation. This is a tad more significant an issue for government than whether or not people should be allowed to put salt on their food. With regard to gay rights, conservatives, being the party of look before you leap, are sometimes reticent in ways they shouldn’t be as well as in those where they should. Many have been taught all their lives that homosexuality was perverse if not evil, and people don’t change longheld beliefs that they were taught when they were young overnight. So it will take time. Still, many conservatives are less opposed to homosexual rights than before and many others aren’t opposed to them at all. Witness Clint Eastwood and…me, for example. It isn’t like homosexuality hasn’t been repressed all over the world for most of the last several millenia. Conservatives are hardly unique in their opposition to it, and in fact American conservatives are among the vanguard, relatively speaking, of those in the world in coming to accept it. Regardless though, I doubt you’re going to find much acceptance for government intrusion as to what foods we’re allowed to eat, what exercise we have to take and how much weight we have to lose (and we are very definitely headed that way) because Republicans have been slow to embrace gay rights. And now I’m out of here. (Hi, **Ruby** , if you’re there. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/116 "2012-09-20T19:35:13Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > The national debt is increasing every second. Unless one has a debt clock right in front of them (Like Wisconsin U.S. Senator Ron Johnsons staff does) it’s impossible to know the exact amount at any given time. How is the statement you’re making substantially different from the one the President said? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/117 "2012-09-20T19:36:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > _48 Hours_ is not “dramatic television.” It’s real life and it simply follows homicide detectives as they attempt to solve murders. The perps and their records are real. I know what 48 Hours is, and intentionally or not, you’ve missed my point completely. A show about individual crimes does not provide any evidence about crime on a societal level. The facts are entirely against you here. > [@](#): > > People aren’t fearful of violent crime because of Republicans Not only Republicans, no - there’s 48 Hours, for example. But Republicans do their damndest. > [@](#): > > No, it’s the result of idiotic notions such as to fail kids harms their self-esteem so pass them regardless. And of teacher’s unions that make it impossible to get rid of bad teachers. And the breakdown of family coherence, where kids grow up without proper adult supervision and proper values and anyone to make sure they do their schoolwork. Many of those things could contribute - and so could the factors I mentioned. But I think putting all the blame on liberal notions like these evinces a greater concern with blaming than with solving the problems. > [@](#): > > With regard to abortion, many conservatives regard it as murder. Right. It’s very easy for Republicans to justify exception after exception to your stated small-government agenda, of course. What’s tougher is convincing people that they believe the agenda when you make so many exceptions. > [@](#): > > Still, many conservatives are less opposed to homosexual rights than before and many others aren’t opposed to them at all. Witness Clint Eastwood and…me, for example. When people who think like you and Clint have positions of actual power in the Republican Party on a national level, we’ll talk. Meanwhile, the party is just about unified in its opposition to gay rights on a national level. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/118 "2012-09-20T20:10:43Z")
We can’t even agree on facts as simple as crime rates anymore? What next, the color of the sky? It has a Democratic bias, donchaknow. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/119 "2012-09-20T20:14:14Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Well he clearly doesn’t care about 1%. Its not taht he doesn’t care about teh 1%, its that he doesn’t care about the 1% to teh exclusion of the other 99%. > [@Andiethewestie](#): > > But the 47% Romney gave a gift that keeps on giving. It’s day two of the Romney Tapes in news cycles if it sticks for 3 days then it has legs. You’re assuming that there won’t be something else in taht three day period. I thought his ridiculous statements about the Egyptian embassy was going last longer than it did, after all, its still going on but that royal screw up got trumped by this new royal screwup. At some point I hope people get back to focusing on his tax returns. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > This is because he largely doesn’t care. To him it’s a tax problem, not a spending problem. Pffft. Thats why he offered a 3 to 1 spending cut to revenue increase deal. > [@moonshot925](#): > > It’s a spending problem. So it doesn’t bother you that we are at historically low revenues? Frankly I don’t think the deficit should be a focus until we get our economy back on track but some people seem to think that the only way to get the economy back on track is to balance the budget (I don’t know a single economist that believes this and I live in an area that has more economists per capita than any other major metropolitan area in the country). > [@moonshot925](#): > > You might see a recession but the results would be far better than continuing this out of control spending. > > Interest payments on the growing national debt will eventually force spending to be cut. Spending cuts have been on the table since day 1. We’ve had several rounds of spending cuts. What haven’t been on the table at all are revenue increases. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > But you would think Obama would know how big the debt was You make it sound like that interview shows that Obama didn’t have any idea of the genearl size of the debt. Pffft. > [@](#): > > If Bush was unpatriotic, then Obama must be a traitor. There is a difference between intentionally putting yourself into a deficit situation because you wanted to give people tax cuts and finding yourself in a severe recession where sound fiscal policy is to run HUMONGOUS deficits to soak up the slack in aggregate demand. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > or will he look at the “empirical” evidence and listen to the folks who predicted it this time. The empirical evidence disagrees with you. There is a consensus among economists that the stimulus did its job. There is consensus among economists that the auto bailouts resulted in a much better economy than we would have had without them. > [@](#): > > Default is an inevitibility at this point. You do realize that our debt is denom inated in US dollars,right? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Take a look at the graph that was linked to upthread. Notice that the U.S. government, largely helmed by Democratic congresses, has spent more than it’s taken in going back at least to 1965 (it actually goes back decades further but the graph only goes back that that far). Note that the only period in which revenues were greater than spending was in the wake of the Republican Revolution of the mid-nineties. Wait, WHAT!?!?!!11! So what happened when Republicans held the house (AND THE SENATE) for most of George Bush’s adminstration? The record is clear that we have run much larger net deficits under Democratic Presidents than Republican presidents. It is largely under Democratic congresses (and Presidents) that our war debt shrank as a percentage of our economy. It wasn’t until Reagan that this trend reversed itself as a result of huge tax cuts that were not accompanied by spending cuts. I realize that you true believers support the spending cuts but your politicians are happy to take the tax cuts without teh spending cuts and the huge deficits that it creates. > [@](#): > > Consider also that wars are by their very nature expensive and that your assessment that the funds spent paying for them were “squandered” is a political opinion, not a fact. Consider also that the relatively sharp increase in spending during the Bush administration is considerably less sharp than the increase in spending during the Obama administration. Explain a large tax cut for the rich in the midst of increased war spending. > [@](#): > > Being told what to do and how to do it by a government entity against which you have no recourse is no way to go through life, and so naturally those of us on the right are inclined to dislike your president for working to subject us to that way of life. C’est la vie! Are youa felon? Aren’t you allowed to vote? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > IMO, Bloomberg is an R in letter only. Probably because he knew it would enhance his electiblity in the wake of Giuliani’s successful turn as mayor. Because no true scottsman… Bloomberg is the only sort of Republican that you will find in the Northeast. You used to find them in DC all the time now they’re all like Rick Santorum. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > However, it’s not for nothing that Congress has a 14% or whatever it is approval rating, and lots of stuff gets done by the people running this govenment that most of its people don’t like. And that applies to Republicans every bit as much as it does to Democrats. The Republican congress has a 14% approval rate. Its not government generally. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I actually agree with most of this post. The problem here from the conservative point of view is that Democrats just aren’t trustworthy when it comes to taxation. The feeling is that if given free rein, the Democrats will increase taxes far more than necessary, use it for pork projects and other ways to buy votes, and that the new rates will become a permanent floor for future tax rates. The last 60 years of tax history tells us that it is a lot easier to cut taxes than raise taxes. A LOT. In fact you can win elections based on this one position alone. > [@Marley23](#): > > The facts are entirely against you here. You act like thats gonna matter. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229/120 "2012-09-20T20:16:08Z")
The rest of us live in a sad world where facts trump our pet preconceptions. A world where a cite demonstrating a fallacy in our belief structure causes us to re-examine our assumptions. In \*\*SA’s \*\*world, not so much. In his world, when faced with a contradiction between fact and opinion, he can support his own mistaken contention by saying “For example (not saying it’s so) it’s entirely possible that…” (post 115) I wish I lived in a world like that! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-remember-how-big-the-debt-is/635229.md?page=7)