# Obama doesn't sign the Anti-Landmine Treaty **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 26, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987 "2009-11-26T01:51:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/81 "2009-11-27T21:37:17Z")
Constanze, after reading post 75, I’ve come to the conclusion that you are either being willfully provocative and don’t believe any of this, or you’re 13 yrs old, in the basement using mom’s computer without her knowing, or maybe a college-age anarchist of some type. You know nothing of what you speak, and only humiliate yourself. I was going to refute all the ridiculous points you tried to make (our humanitarian efforts are private charities and not military/peace-keeping efforts? Were you in a fucking cave all during the recent tsunami?), but I’m too tired. Get fucked. I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/82 "2009-11-27T21:41:32Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Does intelligence tell you that North Korea has not a single tank that would crush anti-personnel mines (the type the Ottawa treaty refers to)? Not a single armored vehicle? No helicopter or plane to fly across the DMZ? No rockets to fire across and wreak havoc? What about all those rockets North Korea is testing in preparation for their atomic weapons - are they all unable to pass the DMZ because of mines? > > Really. Come on. As someone said before, mines don’t have to kill people to be effective, funneling the enemy through a bottleneck is still advantageous. In this case, the bottleneck is only as wide as the number of aircraft and mine clearance vehicles available. Not only does it provide a degree of certainty regarding _how_ the North Koreans would have to cross the border, it also limits the rate at which troops can cross. A helicopter or plane can fly people across the DMZ, but only one load at a time. Unless the entire invasion force is mechanized the army will be slowed by the inability to move freely across the border. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/83 "2009-11-27T22:05:42Z")
Heck, anything that can slow down a potential North Korean advance by a day or two is hugely significant, and since setting up a line of missionaries who just want to talk to the North Koreans for a little while about Jesus won’t work, land-mines it is. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/84 "2009-11-28T00:36:37Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Only half of Europe was under the thumb of the Soviets for 40 years. And why was _that_, do you think? Wait, that’s a bad question to ask, because you _don’t_ think. Goethe would be ashamed of you. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/85 "2009-11-28T00:39:19Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > ( bolding mine) > > We only have your word for it, and frankly, the word of the US is not worth much. Really now? The modern U.S. army is the cleanest fighting, most conscientious fighting force that humanity has ever seen. They go to pretty extensive lengths to minimize casualties that aren’t their targets. It’s not their fault that their civilian leadership pushed them into unjust war - when it comes to how the military actually executes plans, they’ve shown no signs of being untrustworthy or negligent in this fashion. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/86 "2009-11-28T00:49:21Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Goethe would be ashamed of you. Dammit, a comment other than “You’re ugly and your Mother dresses you funny”, a classical reference and I don’t get it. He wrote _Faust…_ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/87 "2009-11-28T02:04:17Z")
Actually, I think it’s much simpler than that. Goethe was a German guy who pretty smart, and we assume that had little patience for Germans who aspire to be dumb-asses. Hence, a safe assumption is that he would not be an admirer of constanze. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/88 "2009-11-28T03:33:59Z")
It’s gotta be better than that. One doesn’t just pick Goethe out of a hat, as it were. Ziehen Goethe aus dem Hut. Not bad… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/89 "2009-11-28T03:40:09Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One doesn’t just pick Goethe out of a hat, as it were. Abbt, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/90 "2009-11-28T04:10:02Z")
I like Goethe. That’s it. There’s nothing more to analyze you sperglords. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/91 "2009-11-28T04:31:18Z")
Sperglords? Ziehen Goethe aus dem Hut. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/92 "2009-11-28T06:14:48Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Only that nobody said anything about total pacifism, only to realize that if war occurs, which is a bad thing, that civilised countries at least should try and keep to minimal rules and not, you know, adopt the same methods the evil guys use. Oh my, a German trying to lecture about how to conduct civilized warfare. I won’t labor on for long about things like Germany starting both world wars, introducing the civilized world to the use of chemical weapons in WW1, the Holocaust or other such contributions that Germany has made towards civilizing warfare. I would, however, like to point out that both of the staple types of anti-personnel landmines were first used by - wait for it - Germany! [The S-mine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Mine_35), the first bounding anti-personnel mine, also popularly known as the Bouncing Betty. > [@](#): > > When triggered, these mines launch into the air and then detonate at about waist height. The explosion projects a lethal shower of steel balls and steel fragments in all directions. > … > It was during the Allied actions in Europe that the S-mine gained its cynical nickname “Bouncing Betty” from American infantrymen. The S-mine had a great psychological effect on Allied forces because of its tendency to seriously maim infantrymen’s limbs or genitalia rather than killing them. [The Shue-mine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schu-mine_42), a small, simple anti-personnel mine made with minimal metal components making it difficult to detect. Mines of this type are generally refered to as toe-poppers, since the small amount of explosives in them usually results in a maiming injury by blowing a foot or part of a leg off. For the record, I think the US should have gotten on board the Ottowa treaty back in 1994. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/93 "2009-11-28T06:28:40Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Oh my, a German trying to lecture about how to conduct civilized warfare. I’ve been wondering about that. Does he come from East or West Germany? Is he so young, or I so old that it doesn’t matter? When did the “Guilt” thing stop? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/94 "2009-11-28T06:39:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I’ve been wondering about that. Does he come from East or West Germany? Is he so young, or I so old that it doesn’t matter? > When did the “Guilt” thing stop? Well, the Germans _used_ to have a population that was well acquainted with the emotion of guilt. Then they killed them all. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/95 "2009-11-28T09:58:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Huh, just realized this was a pit thread. > Contanze, _fuck_ your Euroscum pretentious shithead attitude about how immoral the Americans are when they spent blood and treasure to protect your sorry ass from, get this, _other Europeans!_ The bullshit you guys have done to each other is way worse than anything the Americans have done… well, pretty much to anyone, ever. Frankly, without the Americans and if I may be so bold to include my fellow Canadians, you’d be under the thumb of either latter-day Nazis or latter-day Soviets, so show some respect, you stupid bitch. Maybe that “give peace a chance” crap works on your fellow Eurotwits who have a friendly competition going over who can sneer the most, but fortunately there are people who have antibodies of intellect to help us resist even the most determined of stupidity infections. You forgot to add 'if it wasn’t for us, you’d all be speaking German now… ’ :smack: I love this bit > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > so show some respect, you stupid bitch Ooooh, sexy Mr Merkin, I crawl at the feet of your almighty hard weapon. I stand with you Constanze. I’d rather be a ‘pretentious shithead’ European than an American meathead any day. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/96 "2009-11-28T10:08:52Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Oh my, a German trying to lecture about how to conduct civilized warfare. I won’t labor on for long about things like Germany starting both world wars, introducing the civilized world to the use of chemical weapons in WW1, the Holocaust or other such contributions that Germany has made towards civilizing warfare. I would, however, like to point out that both of the staple types of anti-personnel landmines were first used by - wait for it - Germany! This is getting so so tired. So a German can never speak up for peace, is that your argument? Well if you ever paid attention to modern politics or had ever met any contemporary Germans, you would know that they are horrified at what happened ‘in their name’ and never want anything like that to happen again. And so they argue for peace. It’s called ‘learning from painful experience’. Pity the US hasn’t learnt the same lesson. Give me a peace loving German over a gun-toting, flag waving american any day. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/97 "2009-11-28T10:14:24Z")
Are you guys serious at this point? We’re only some good grammar and spelling away from youtube comments. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/98 "2009-11-28T15:15:27Z")
Obama is still the president of the United States, right? Why the fuck would he sign an anti-landmine treaty? Maybe we’ll get a thread asking why we’re still in Afghanistan and Iraq and torturing people. It’s so mysterious! Oh Obama, you make me swoooon. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/99 "2009-11-28T15:46:43Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Are you guys serious at this point? We’re only some good grammar and spelling away from youtube comments. No, you. Just kidding. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987/100 "2009-11-28T16:28:13Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > This is getting so so tired. So a German can never speak up for peace, is that your argument? Well if you ever paid attention to modern politics or had ever met any contemporary Germans, you would know that they are horrified at what happened ‘in their name’ and never want anything like that to happen again. And so they argue for peace. It’s called ‘learning from painful experience’. Pity the US hasn’t learnt the same lesson. > > Give me a peace loving German over a gun-toting, flag waving american any day. He’s couching his “cry for peace” as a means of being a condescending jerk towards Americans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-doesnt-sign-the-anti-landmine-treaty/518987.md?page=6)