# Obama: don't give in to those fuckers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 6, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158 "2010-12-06T16:36:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/121 "2010-12-09T19:50:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > people who earned it Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/122 "2010-12-09T20:02:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I love how, in the liberal mind, taking less money away from people who earned it is precisely the same as a “give away” of money to “wealthy tax recipients.” > > No. Argue all you like that wise governance is to tax those people more, but stop pretending that you’re doing anything other than taking more money away from people that earned it, not giving them money they didn’t earn. > > But I’m not even that upset about it. Because, you see, I voted for Obama, and I think he’s doing the right thing. So I’m pretty happy. It’s all an unfunded giveaway, regardless of the recipient. If they are going to do that, they should at least try to channel it where it’s most needed, IMO. Hell, they gave billions to the very financial institutions that caused the mess in the first place, which is just unconscionable. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/123 "2010-12-09T20:25:26Z")
[QUOTE=Chefguy] It’s all an unfunded giveaway, regardless of the recipient. [/QUOTE] So…a tax cut, regardless of who gets the cut, is a giveaway? Does that mean that all our money (yours, mine, Bill Gates, etc etc) belongs to the government, and they just loan it to us? > [@](#): > > If they are going to do that, they should at least try to channel it where it’s most needed, IMO. How? What would you suggest? > [@](#): > > Hell, they gave billions to the very financial institutions that caused the mess in the first place, which is just unconscionable. Well, they were probably a bit alarmed at the whole ‘the entire financial system could melt down and we’d all need to go back to being hunters and gatherers’ thingy. I can see why taking a fire moral stance on this and sticking to your principals are important and all, but global financial economic collapse might be taking things just a touch to far. Unconscionable or not. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/124 "2010-12-09T21:01:12Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > It’s all an unfunded giveaway, regardless of the recipient. That’s not so. Money I earn is mine. You may argue that I should give up some of it to fund the government, and I agree with you that I should. But that process is ME giving money to the government, not the government giving money to me. And if, next year, the government decides to take less of my money, then that doesn’t somehow magically transform into them giving me anything. They are taking less. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/125 "2010-12-09T21:20:42Z")
That is how it was effectively sold. There were plenty who disagreed ,but they got no press. If you believe the bankers blew up the economic system, then they should have been the last people to be put in charge. They already showed themselves to be reckless gamblers with their institutions money. They should have been put to pasture and should have faced charges. There was plenty of evidence the books were cooked and their activities shrouded from regulators. There are lots of financial experts who could have rebuilt the banking system in a fair and equitable way. It was not done. Goldman had way too much input. The result is a banking system even more concentrated than it was before the crash and still at risk. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/126 "2010-12-09T21:27:04Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The tax cuts to the rich have not created jobs. Saving the banks and making the banksters whole again, did not make them feel a need to do the right thing. They sneered at our stupidity and continued the theft. They do not lend to small businesses which most understand is where job creation occurs. I would nitpick this. Job creation follows demand. We didn’t need lending as such, nor funding of businesses as such. We needed a broad-based income rise to grow the economy, & that could have been more efficiently done with a massive expansion of redistributive programs–welfare, unemployment, negative income taxes, what have you. Dems aren’t even looking in the right places to ask the right questions. For that matter, one good thing about bailing out the bankers is that it creates a public impetus to bail out the general public, the private homeowner, etc. Let those who have received generosity be shamed into generosity themselves. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/127 "2010-12-09T21:46:43Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So…a tax cut, regardless of who gets the cut, is a giveaway? Does that mean that all our money (yours, mine, Bill Gates, etc etc) belongs to the government, and they just loan it to us? > > How? What would you suggest? > > Well, they were probably a bit alarmed at the whole ‘the entire financial system could melt down and we’d all need to go back to being hunters and gatherers’ thingy. I can see why taking a fire moral stance on this and sticking to your principals are important and all, but global financial economic collapse might be taking things just a touch to far. Unconscionable or not. > > -XT I’m on the run, but will address the last comment: Goldman-Sachs declared record profits in the year following this debacle. They were in no danger of melting down at any time during this sequence of events and were in fact surprised to be offered free tax dollars to invest. They reaped profits while homeowners burned, because they are at the top of the pyramid. They cheerfully watched AIG and others bite the big one because it meant a larger slice of the pie for themselves. The government has become convinced that bailing out assholes like the S&Ls and the banks is the only way to “save” the economy, while those institutions have become confident that the gov’t will bail them out any time they fuck up, which is often. Thank you Alan Greenspan. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/128 "2010-12-09T22:16:53Z")
Even if your assessment of things concerning Goldman-Sachs is true, that constitutes ONE bail out. Are you saying that they were all like that? That there really was no financial crisis? That it was all illusion to get the rich fat cats a bail out at the tax payers expense? Here is the thing…for the most part I agree with you as far as the bail outs go. I think we should have let them (and the auto industries that were in trouble) fail if that was what was going to happen, and taken our lumps. However, they would have been rather large lumps and would have made the current recession look like a boom. I happen to feel that having taken those lumps we would have had a shorter recession and probably a better recovery, but that’s just my own uneducated take on it. The bottom line, however, is that it would have been very bad, for the ‘rich’, poor and middle classes alike…in fact, it would have been a lot worse on all three groups, but I suspect it would have hit the middle classes the hardest. More unemployment, more lost assets, more and deeper hardship from the real estate aspects, more financial woes all around. And there was a chance that the lumps would have sent us collectively over the edge this time…from talking to people who know a hell of a lot more than I do or did it could have been very bad. A lot of those folks were seriously scared, and some of them still are…which says something about the gravity of the situation we faced then and still face now. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/129 "2010-12-09T22:51:19Z")
I don’t think we should have let them fail. I think we should have taken over one of the failing banks and did the peoples work. They could have started loaning to small businesses and got the economy going. A little competition goes a long way. But the banks have a no risk system of making money now. They don’t care about fixing the economy they destroyed. We are giving the bankers money for practically free. Their response is to not lend and make money by buying treasury notes with tax payers money. They are back to making themselves extremely wealthy off our cash. They are also drumming up ways to squeeze their customers with new and expensive fees . We let them win. When the ratings agencies went in front on congress, they admitted they would triple A rate anything that the banks threw at them. They double as a regulating agency and failed terribly. have they suffered. No thats for the people. It all went wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/130 "2010-12-09T23:30:02Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Even if your assessment of things concerning Goldman-Sachs is true, that constitutes ONE bail out. Are you saying that they were all like that? That there really was no financial crisis? That it was all illusion to get the rich fat cats a bail out at the tax payers expense? > > Here is the thing…for the most part I agree with you as far as the bail outs go. I think we should have let them (and the auto industries that were in trouble) fail if that was what was going to happen, and taken our lumps. However, they would have been rather large lumps and would have made the current recession look like a boom. I happen to feel that having taken those lumps we would have had a shorter recession and probably a better recovery, but that’s just my own uneducated take on it. The bottom line, however, is that it would have been very bad, for the ‘rich’, poor and middle classes alike…in fact, it would have been a lot worse on all three groups, but I suspect it would have hit the middle classes the hardest. More unemployment, more lost assets, more and deeper hardship from the real estate aspects, more financial woes all around. And there was a chance that the lumps would have sent us collectively over the edge this time…from talking to people who know a hell of a lot more than I do or did it could have been very bad. A lot of those folks were seriously scared, and some of them still are…which says something about the gravity of the situation we faced then and still face now. > > -XT It’s not my assessment: it’s a matter of public record. I agree with you for the most part. I wish the administration had used a bit more discretion when doling out the dollars, is all. G-S had already been fined millions on several occasions for shady practices (a drop in the bucket considering the profits they were making). One would think that this would have set off alarms somewhere when it came to handing out the treats. Going back to my original post: I’m just pissed that Big O caved in when he didn’t have to. I’d probably be cheering if I was still making that sort of money. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/131 "2010-12-10T00:19:12Z")
[http://financialedge.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0810/Corporate-Fines-How-Much-Do-They-Hurt.aspx](http://financialedge.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0810/Corporate-Fines-How-Much-Do-They-Hurt.aspx) I don’t know how you can hurt them if you don’t jail them. Fining them is a joke. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/132 "2010-12-10T01:04:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not so. Money I earn is mine. > > You may argue that I should give up some of it to fund the government, and I agree with you that I should. But that process is ME giving money to the government, not the government giving money to me. > > And if, next year, the government decides to take less of my money, then that doesn’t somehow magically transform into them giving me anything. They are taking less. Taxing is not giving. It is taxing. The money is the government’s once it has been taxed. Those who keep it are felons, ala Wesley Snipes. If the government is going to spend it, the government needs to figure out a way to pay for what it is spending. I know that concept is foreign to borrow and spend Republicans who mistakenly call themselves conservative, when in fact their spending and war policies are quite radical. There is nothing wrong or immoral under a conservative thinking about a progressive graduated tax system. A system that effectively taxes rich people and corporations at a lesser rate than poor and middle class people, which is what we have after 30 years of Reaganomics, is not conservative, moral or responsible. A far smaller percentage of society holds far more of the wealth now than it did 30 years ago. Reaganomics does not work the way it was advertised to the public, but works exactly as it’s critics of 30 years ago complained of: it transfers money from the poor and the future to the present ultra rich. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/133 "2010-12-10T01:20:16Z")
[http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/bofa-pay-137-million-settle-claims-defrauded-schools-hospitals/](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/bofa-pay-137-million-settle-claims-defrauded-schools-hospitals/) These bankers are the people we let have a free hand in fixing the financial mess they caused. Bank of America ,the biggest bank was fined 137 million dollars for defrauding schools, hospitals, and non profits. They are the scum of the earth and deserve no respect. Things will not get better until we finally figure out what kind of people we are dealing with and treat them accordingly. Bank of America trots out the check book and goes on with its business. Someone should see prison time. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/134 "2010-12-10T02:00:06Z")
You guys and your “private property” fetish. Never quite understood it. I mean, property is just stuff, right, gold, dirt, buildings…all just things. made of stuff. But it becomes something special when its ownership if assumed by or transferred to a particular person. At that point a sublime transformation occurs, the person pours their grace and humanity into the previously empty vessel, and behold! It becomes sacred, inviolate, it has transubstantiated into radiant holiness. You guys pull out “private property Mine! Mine! MINE!” and brandish it at us like Van Helsing springing a crucifix on Dracula, expecting us to cringe away from the Power of Private Property, or, failing that, collapse into piles of morbid dust. It slays me, I am rendered chucklesome. Look, guys, property rights is one of the group, no question, a worthy inclusion. But it is not the Crown Jewel of human rights, it is not the axis upon which the wheel of human rights turns. Its not even first amongst equals. Forced to choose, I personally think freedom of speech wins the swimsuit competition, but its better just to hold them all roughly equal. But I digress. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/135 "2010-12-10T02:12:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Its not even first amongst equals. Forced to choose, I personally think freedom of speech wins the swimsuit competition, but its better just to hold them all roughly equal. So if I’m on your property, and we’re both having a fine time, and suddenly I start using my freedom of speech to spout off in ways you don’t like – can you make me leave? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/136 "2010-12-10T02:49:14Z")
Might sic the dog on you, if he’s sober. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/137 "2010-12-10T03:48:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Argue all you like that wise governance is to tax those people more, It [del]would[/del] will really be nice [del]if[/del] when **you** stop couching your posts in terms that suggest that this point has not already been well-established. An insistence that this wheel be reinvented every time we convene to discuss the issue is a textbook example of bad-faith debating. > [@The Kevin Smith Appreciation Thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kevin-smith-appreciation-thread/65791/2): > > But I’m not even that upset about it. Because, you see, I voted for Obama, and I think he’s doing the right thing. So I’m pretty happy. I won’t go so far as _happy_, myself. But at least the Puggies didn’t get “permanent” out of the deal. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/138 "2010-12-16T20:03:06Z")
[Tax Cut Debate Stalls as Package Hits House Hurdle](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/16/tax-cut-debate-stalls-package-hits-house-hurdle/#ixzz18J3o9nRy) Maybe it’ll become a permanent fuck-ya’ll. I doubt it, but it’s Christmas, and that’d be SUPER! ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/139 "2010-12-17T04:40:22Z")
[Senate drops the $1.3T Omnibus Spending Bill as well](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9K5BA5O0&show_article=1) Doing the Happy Dance!!! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158/140 "2010-12-17T16:15:03Z")
Mitch McConnell being even more disingenuous than usual, I see. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-dont-give-in-to-those-fuckers/563158.md?page=8)