# Obama Executive Actions on Guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260 "2016-01-05T19:57:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/101 "2016-01-06T19:56:55Z")
Soooo…lobbyists would determine who would be on the list? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/102 "2016-01-06T20:00:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Presumably because this independent action is a last resort. Well, I suppose but he did have the House and Senate for two years. Plus, he could have redirected Holder to ramp up gun prosecutions at any time but chose to take different initiatives. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/103 "2016-01-06T20:35:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Soooo…lobbyists would determine who would be on the list? How utterly trite. Tell me, does Congress = lobbyists only for things you disagree with? Do the fact that lobbyists are involved turn a good idea into a bad one? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/104 "2016-01-06T20:45:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > How utterly trite. Tell me, does Congress = lobbyists only for things you disagree with? Do the fact that lobbyists are involved turn a good idea into a bad one? Congress = lobbyists for things that I both agree and disagree with. However, things I disagree with tend to be the things that lobbyists purchase Congressmen for considerably more often than things that I agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/105 "2016-01-06T20:46:12Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > How utterly trite. Tell me, does Congress = lobbyists only for things you disagree with? Do the fact that lobbyists are involved turn a good idea into a bad one? When was it ever a good idea in the first place? We’ve all seen what Congresscritters are willing to say and do to get votes, and they aren’t accountable to anything but money and the day’s poll numbers. Besides, it wouldn’t be the whole of Congress making the decisions. It would be a Congressional _Committee_, and those are _very_ rarely staffed by anyone who has any expertise in the topic the Committee is supposed to be about. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/106 "2016-01-06T20:51:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The New York Times recently did a piece about how easy it was to run guns from easy-access states and cities to hard-access states and cities. It’s as if you are trying to prove that quarantines don’t work by declaring Chicago to be a quarantine area…but doing nothing to control access to and from the city. > Why not have it mandatory throughout the country? Because of all the objections that exist with licensing and registration. The biggest challenge seems to be convincing the gun rights folks that they can trust the gun control folks not to keep pushing for more (up to and including a total gun ban). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/107 "2016-01-06T20:54:32Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > OK. So, it’s a fig leaf. It’s what should have been done all along. We can all agree, opponents and fans of gun control that this is a good thing that we are finally enforcing existing laws. > > So, why are [Republicans](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/republicans-ted-cruz-marco-rubio-slam-president-barack-obamas-executive-action-on-gun-control/) opposed to this? Mostly because anything Obama does must be criticized during a Republican primary. Anything short of overt racism against Obama can only help you in a Republican primary. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/108 "2016-01-06T20:54:46Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Congress = lobbyists for things that I both agree and disagree with. However, things I disagree with tend to be the things that lobbyists purchase Congressmen for considerably more often than things that I agree with. Oh right. When you agree with it, it’s less likely to be because lobbyists have purchased congressmen. That makes total sense. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > When was it ever a good idea in the first place? We’ve all seen what Congresscritters are willing to say and do to get votes, and they aren’t accountable to anything but money and the day’s poll numbers. Besides, it wouldn’t be the whole of Congress making the decisions. It would be a Congressional _Committee_, and those are _very_ rarely staffed by anyone who has any expertise in the topic the Committee is supposed to be about. So instead of Congress… you suggest executive fiat? * * * This gets better and better. Looking at the [application to become an FFL (pdf)](https://www.atf.gov/file/61506/download), you get to question 18 and 18a which read: > [@](#): > > Do You Intend To Make a Profit from Your Business? > Do You Intend To Sell Firearms Only at Gun Shows? If you answer no to the first question the form instructs you NOT to submit an application. If you answer yes to the second question the form instructs you NOT to submit an application. We’re going to prosecute you if you are not an FFL - but we wont let you become an FFL! A complete reversal from the Clinton era purging of FFLs. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/109 "2016-01-06T21:04:38Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Oh right. When you agree with it, it’s less likely to be because lobbyists have purchased congressmen. That makes total sense. I care about environmental issues, but the [Sierra Club](https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/indusclient.php?id=Q11) doesn’t have quite the same lobbying capacity as the [oil companies](https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/indusclient.php?id=E01). Does it make sense now? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/110 "2016-01-06T21:28:14Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Hiring a frontman would be considered a straw purchase. Already illegal at the federal level. > > I understand the problem. The problem is that people are willing to break the law to make money. You are asking for a law that does exactly what is on the books already. If a criminal from one state buys a gun from a law abiding individual in another state, he or they both are breaking the law today. A new law mandating BG checks will change nothing as it is already the law today. If BG checks become MORE mandatory, there is still no way to track whether the guy in Indiana legally sold his gun to the guy in IL. The mandatory checks would have no teeth. > > How to fix that? Easy, on top of all private sales being banned and forced to go through a FFL dealer you will also need to implement a registration scheme to track every gun in the nation. Canada did it and it failed miserably, it’s currently against Federal law to do so, and NOBODY favors the idea, not enough to get it passed anyway, but that would solve the problem of making most sales go through a BG check. All sales except for those who currently are flaunting the very same law today. As a supporter of universal gun registration and licensing, I would be happy to stop at a handgun registry and never bring up registration of long guns again in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/111 "2016-01-06T21:38:08Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > I agree completely. But according to the article I linked, federal gun prosecutions are down significantly even though ATF employment numbers stayed the same. It shouldn’t take an additional 500 employees and the funding to go along with it to get numbers to Pre Obama administration levels. AFAICT this is mostly the result of the Obama administration’s reaction to Fast & Furious. They seem to dogpile and shit on whoever the Republicans shit on. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/112 "2016-01-06T21:42:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Soooo…lobbyists would determine who would be on the list? Bureaucrats would determine who is on the list if, for example, people on the no fly list were prohibited persons. Right now, almost everyone on the prohibited person list has had their day in court. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/113 "2016-01-06T23:47:15Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > #2 is really about gun trusts and rule 41P. People use gun trusts to obviate the need for CLEO approval for NFA items. The clarification for rule 41P doesn’t really do much, the CLEO doesn’t get veto power and is more of an inform, and there are still background checks necessary. The rule is a bit vague on its use of “responsible persons” with respect to NFA items within the trust, but Obama’s action #2 is no barrier. Not only is it no barrier, but it actually makes it easier for people to purchase machineguns as individuals. In many counties where the CLEO would refuse to sign the Form 4, it was necessary for people to purchase NFA items through a trust. It was never an issue of trying to _avoid_ the CLEO signature process, it was due to the fact that so many CLEOs would not sign at all. There are many other benefits of establishing a trust as well. But for an individual who only wants to buy one specific item no longer has to go through the trouble or expense of setting up a trust. #2 has removed the requirement for CLEO signature requirement for individual transfers. So that individual can now purchase a machinegun in that county without using a trust or corporation at all. Hillsborough County, Florida is one such place. That Sheriff has continued the policy started by his predecessor of never signing a Form 4 for anyone. So anyone wanting to purchase a machinegun, had to establish a Trust and purchase it that way. Trusts were never used as a way for a felon or other illegal person to buy the thing. So #2 makes it slightly more inconvenient to make purchases through the trust, as every principle named on the trust must submit photos and fingerprint cards for every purchase. Not really a big deal. But it is a huge win for gun owners, as it allows thousands of people who want to buy something like a silencer, but didn’t want or know how to go through the trust or incorporation process. If no local laws restrict the purchase or possession of machineguns, the Sheriff will no longer be able to establish his own restrictions through simple policy. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/114 "2016-01-07T02:12:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The New York Times recently did a piece about how easy it was to run guns from easy-access states and cities to hard-access states and cities. It’s as if you are trying to prove that quarantines don’t work by declaring Chicago to be a quarantine area…but doing nothing to control access to and from the city. > Why not have it mandatory throughout the country? Because most states don’t want an IL-style FOID system. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/115 "2016-01-07T05:13:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Because of all the objections that exist with licensing and registration. The biggest challenge seems to be convincing the gun rights folks that they can trust the gun control folks not to keep pushing for more (up to and including a total gun ban). That is a huge challenge. Seriously. Most folks that want more controls don’ want a total gun ban. Most folks that want more controls would want to make a first step, see how it works and course correct as needed. IMHO I call that a rational approach, and those that feel really strongly about the 2nd will call it a slippery slope and no way no how can take even a baby step on that slippery slope. It’s a contradiction ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/116 "2016-01-07T06:18:45Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > That is a huge challenge. Seriously. Most folks that want more controls don’ want a total gun ban. Most folks that want more controls would want to make a first step, see how it works and course correct as needed. IMHO I call that a rational approach, and those that feel really strongly about the 2nd will call it a slippery slope and no way no how can take even a baby step on that slippery slope. It’s a contradiction Exactly. We are forced to fight every measure because to do otherwise would give the other side traction towards eventual bans. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that most firearm deaths are caused by handguns and not assault weapons or any other rifles. That being said, there are few calls to ban handguns, yet. AWs on the other hand are the first thing that the anti gun crowd wants to ban. Not because of their significant use in crimes, not because they are immensely more powerful than other guns, but because they seem to be the low hanging fruit and look scary, and folks think they are machine guns. “Who NEEDS a military style rifle to hunt deer anyway” is the common cry. My first reaction when I hear the cry to ban AWs is to realize that the speaker is a fucking moron, scared of rifles that they don’t understand, or a calculated gun grabber trying to make an easy mark, in their eyes. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/117 "2016-01-07T06:23:57Z")
Agreed. My first reaction to an AWS ban is that it’s really a 5th element from the NRA that’s pushing this. I could be wrong but the moron level of AWS bans boggles the mind. Just look at the numbers that I’m too lazy to search on, but its handguns that cause by far the majority of deaths. That said, IMHO it’s a rationale approach to try x, and if x isn’t effective enough try y. No need to go from the current situation to a 100% ban on firearms. Christ, I don’t want a 100% ban on firearms and want to reserve my right to buy one day if I so choose. I’d wager that the vast majority of so called of those that want more control on firearms than exists now, don’t want a 100% ban either but that’s IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/118 "2016-01-07T14:45:16Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > In the BATFE guidance, that example is specifically stated as not a dealer in the case of a person who likes to have newer model firearms and sells existing ones to fund new purchases. Do the designs change that frequently, i.e. in less than a year (or even two or three years), a gun is considered “obsolete” and there are suckers, err… people who will trade up? If so, that’s even worse than the planned obsolescence that automakers get accused of. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/119 "2016-01-07T15:14:42Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > That is a huge challenge. Seriously. Most folks that want more controls don’ want a total gun ban. Most folks that want more controls would want to make a first step, see how it works and course correct as needed. IMHO I call that a rational approach, and those that feel really strongly about the 2nd will call it a slippery slope and no way no how can take even a baby step on that slippery slope. It’s a contradiction The paranoia of the gun rights folks is not entirely unfounded. The attitude too fre ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260/120 "2016-01-07T15:22:35Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > That is a huge challenge. Seriously. Most folks that want more controls don’ want a total gun ban. Most folks that want more controls would want to make a first step, see how it works and course correct as needed. IMHO I call that a rational approach, and those that feel really strongly about the 2nd will call it a slippery slope and no way no how can take even a baby step on that slippery slope. It’s a contradiction The paranoia of the gun rights folks is not entirely unfounded. There is no end point for what gun control folks want to try. The people leading the charge are very much in favor of a NEAR total ban on guns and are willing to mislead their less informed brethren into supporting things that seem designed to push us closer and closer to gun bans. The attitude too frequently is “HEY!!! We have a problem and I think gun s are the problem. I don’t really understand the issues surrounding guns but lets just keep trying shit until something works.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-executive-actions-on-guns/742260.md?page=7)