# Obama freezes federal worker pay for 2 years **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301 "2010-11-29T17:43:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/301 "2010-12-03T17:36:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sorry, I thought you were debating. Is that not the heart of the debate? You think people need intervention in order to succeed, I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/302 "2010-12-03T17:37:00Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > It didn’t start with the union, it started with the government (put there to protect the people) See, this is just a fundamental difference in how you interpret the government (not just you, but lots of people). You see the government as this giant “other” out to protect, distort, confiscate, regulate, whatever. They act on the people. I see the government as an extension of our collective wills, something that acts on our behalf with our support. It _is_ the people. “Government of the people, by the people, and for the people”. We don’t have social insurance because we thing people need outside help or we think they’re too stupid to take care of themselves. We have social insurance because we believe as a society that certain basic protections should be extended to all people, and we agree to pay for those collectively. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/303 "2010-12-03T17:38:04Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Is that not the heart of the debate? > You think people need intervention in order to succeed, I don’t. That’s the heart of the disagreement. “Waaah, what about personal responsibility?” has little to do with _debate_, however. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/304 "2010-12-03T17:42:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s the heart of the disagreement. “Waaah, what about personal responsibility?” has little to do with _debate_, however. Hmmmm. We had, and are still seeing all sorts of bailouts, to the tune of many TRILLION dollars. We are being “told” that we have to bankroll all this. In short we have to take it in the butt, so the banks and Wall Street never have to pay the price for their bad business decisions. Is it all about responsibility? Is it all about taking risks and being willing to accept that there will not always be success? If so, then let’s STOP bailing out failed business. Let’s drop the “corporate welfare”. Too big to fail? How about too big to keep propping up? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/305 "2010-12-03T17:44:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s the heart of the disagreement. “Waaah, what about personal responsibility?” has little to do with _debate_, however. And I would even disagree with that assessment. If you take away personal responsibility, you are left with charity and I doubt even the hard left could make that fly to the people. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/306 "2010-12-03T17:44:52Z")
We’re still seeing bailouts? ETA: **Kearsen** , I have no idea what you’re trying to say there. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/307 "2010-12-03T17:49:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > We’re still seeing bailouts? > > ETA: **Kearsen** , I have no idea what you’re trying to say there. I was meaning to clarify that if all the government does is “help out” with no regard to how the people go in that situation (treating the symptoms, not the disease) then it is in essence charity. I see personal responsibility being a very important tool for determining whether or not those people are even worth helping. For example, would you be on board to help out BP? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/308 "2010-12-03T17:55:04Z")
Help it out with what? BP is not in financial difficulty, as far as I am aware. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/309 "2010-12-03T17:56:10Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > For example, would you be on board to help out BP? That would [never happen](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&hp)… ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/310 "2010-12-03T18:29:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Help it out with what? BP is not in financial difficulty, as far as I am aware. Hypothetically, let’s say that due to having to clean up their mess, would you help them out financially? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/311 "2010-12-03T18:30:14Z")
Assuming that the cost of the cleanup put them on shaky financial ground? Probably not. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/312 "2010-12-03T18:34:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Assuming that the cost of the cleanup put them on shaky financial ground? Probably not. Why? I guess I just don’t see how you can be on board with one and not the other. In fact, I’d probably be more willing to help out BP (assuming they exhausted all their money trying to do what was right) than to throw money at a failed auto industry or our own banking industry. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/313 "2010-12-03T18:38:04Z")
That’s a big assumption. They would have exhausted their money trying to do what they were legally obligated to do, not “what was right”. BP wasn’t trying to close the well out of the goodness of their hearts. I’m not sure why you think I’m “on board” with the bailouts, though I am to a degree. This thread is about federal workers’ pay, and as far as I can recall I haven’t said anything about bailouts in it, other than my question in post 306. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/314 "2010-12-03T18:40:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s a big assumption. They would have exhausted their money trying to do what they were legally obligated to do, not “what was right”. BP wasn’t trying to close the well out of the goodness of their hearts. > > I’m not sure why you think I’m “on board” with the bailouts, though I am to a degree. This thread is about federal workers’ pay, and as far as I can recall I haven’t said anything about bailouts in it, other than my question in post 306. Well, they could have declared bankruptcy and walked away. I started this line of reasoning merely as an aside to showcase an example of ‘personal responsibility’ and how it would/could affect judgment (in this case, mine). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/315 "2010-12-03T18:43:36Z")
:dubious: You can’t just “declare bankruptcy and walk away”. You have to be _bankrupt_ - to have ceased to pay your debts in the ordinary course of business. In any event, even if that were true, it’s not an argument for personal responsibility; it’s an argument for increased government oversight- offshore drilling companies should have to post a bond equivalent to the potential cost of cleanup if a disaster like the BP spill bankrupts them. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/316 "2010-12-03T18:47:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > :dubious: You can’t just “declare bankruptcy and walk away”. You have to be _bankrupt_ - to have ceased to pay your debts in the ordinary course of business. > > In any event, even if that were true, it’s not an argument for personal responsibility; it’s an argument for increased government oversight- offshore drilling companies should have to post a bond equivalent to the potential cost of cleanup if a disaster like the BP spill bankrupts them. Yes. they should take responsibility and be responsible. Yes. They should be subject to oversight if they operate within U.S territory or U.S waters. It is not (or at least it shouldn’t be) government’s job to protect their wallets and guarantee them a profit. If they want to be “free” to take profits then they shoudl also be “free” to take risks and lose sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/317 "2010-12-03T20:01:02Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Krugman once again proved how he twists the facts to fit his partisan point of view in the NYT op-ed about Obama’s freezing of federal worker pay: [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/03/opinion/03krugman.html?hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/03/opinion/03krugman.html?hp). > … > This type of biased partisan dishonesty and cherry-picking of data happens in most of Krugman’s writing. He can’t be taken seriously. You were probably never going to take him seriously anyways, probably for the same reason you believe that federal benefits are $41K and private sector benefits is $10K. > **[Frequently Asked Questions | U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)](https://www.bea.gov/help/faq?faq_id=320&start=0&cat_id=0)** Youa re simply willing to accept at face value those things that confirm your opinions and really dig into those things that contradict them. Everyone does it, I think its called confirmation bias. Despite your criticism, Krugman is making some good counterpoints to the “federal employees are overpaid” argument but all of that seems to be entirely ignored by you. Here is a conversation on teh subject. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13194042](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13194042) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/318 "2010-12-03T20:20:38Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Yes, the graph shows that that federal revenue hovers around 19% of GDP. I asked if you have evidence to the contrary. > > And, no, they compare TOP MARGINAL INCOME TAX RATES with TOTAL FEDERAL REVENUE AS A PERCENTAGE OF GDP. And those TOTAL FEDERAL REVENUES include things liek social security and medicare. That’s all I’m saying, they’re comaparing apples and oranges. I think it bears more investigation but the chart is dishonest. I think it would be more honest to compare federal INCOME taxes as a percentage of GDP and the top marginal tax rate. > **[Hauser's law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauser%27s_Law)** > > Hauser's law is the empirical observation that, in the United States, federal tax revenues since World War II have always been approximately equal to 19.5% of GDP, regardless of wide fluctuations in the marginal tax rate. Historically, since the end of World War II, federal tax receipts as a percentage of gross domestic product averaged 17.9%, with a range from 14.4% to 20.9% between 1946 and 2007. > The proposition was first put forward in 1993 by William Kurt Hauser, a San Francisco investment... > [@](#): > > And, finally, the last federal income tax increase was under Clinton. And do you recall the economic basketcase we became under that tax regime? ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/319 "2010-12-03T21:30:26Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Comparison of an almost exclusively white-collar group to the general workforce is obviously irrelevant. > > Mr Kettle? Mr Pot called. Something about your failure to reflect enough light… You didn’t understand that the point of this sentence was to show that the difference is huge and it cannot be ignored? I wasn’t the one writing a newspaper article and making the statement that the federal workers are paid less (or more). If want to argue that the difference disappears when controlling for blue-collar/white-collar jobs, provide the cite. I am quite sure you will fail. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/320 "2010-12-03T21:41:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Um… so what? > > He’s talking about the savings over two years because _that’s how long the freeze is for_. It’s also possible that he’s talking about the cost of extending the tax cuts over 10 years because _that’s the likely duration of the extension_. > > There are certainly legitimate arguments against Krugman’s position, but this one is simply legitimately moronic. I didn’t think anyone, even on this forum, was this blinded by partisanship not to understand how bringing up the cost savings over two years vs. costs over 75 years is obviously biased. Really Not All That Bright, congrats. 75 years is not a likely duration of the extension. Two years is not the duration of time during which the savings from the freeze will accumulate. Did you not read any articles about these issues? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301.md?page=17)