# Obama freezes federal worker pay for 2 years **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301 "2010-11-29T17:43:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/41 "2010-11-29T19:19:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Getting fired is more damaging than not getting a raise, and regardless of how federal emplyees feel about (and they won’t be as pissed as you’re hoping they will be), the Republicans would like to do even worse, so this is not going to be any kind of political win for righties. I meant less damaging for Obama. Also, you can check your partisan rhetoric at the door. I am discussing which will be worse politically for Obama regardless of whether or not I agree with eliminating the COLA, not what the eeevulll Republicans are planning to do. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/42 "2010-11-29T19:22:28Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Letting the tax cuts expire will do little or nothing to increase revenue. Regardless of the tax rates the federal receips are always around 19% of GDP. Tax increases will just create a drag for the recovering economy. You don’t see any correlation between the Bush tax cuts and the tax receipts as percentage of GDP in this chart? [http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/current-tax-receipts](http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/current-tax-receipts) Not to mention that there is no evidence that the higher taxes on top wage-earners creates a drag on the economy at all, certainly not the modest increase back to Clinton-era rates (when the economy hummed along quite nicely for the most part). One might also note that the only years in which we ran a budget surplus were the years in which tax receipts as a percentage of GDP was more like 20% - getting back there might be a good idea, no? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/43 "2010-11-29T19:25:52Z")
This will gain no sugar for Obama from Republicans. It does however, make him look weak. He needs to stop pandering, and get ready to veto the GOP’s irresponsible tax cut initiatives. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/44 "2010-11-29T19:28:43Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Letting the tax cuts expire will do little or nothing to increase revenue. Regardless of the tax rates the federal receips are always around 19% of GDP. Tax increases will just create a drag for the recovering economy. I know you really, really want to believe this, but you are speaking an article of faith here. It’s not true. Seriously. You need to take a couple steps into reality and start dealing with _the world as it is_, not demanding that people live in _the world as your ideology really, really wants it to be_. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/45 "2010-11-29T19:30:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So you were proposing that Obama eliminate some government jobs several years from now? I didn’t get that from your post. I wasn’t proposing anything. I was discussing which would provide better political cover. > [@Marley23](#): > > Obviously. I’m just pointing out that this does not translate to instant savings. Obviously. I was not discussing instant savings. With that being said, eliminating the COLA will do little to reduce the deficit if we are still hiring more federal employees. > [@Marley23](#): > > How on earth is that possible? People alter their behavior or shift how they receive compensation in order to lower their tax burden. That is common sense. > [@Marley23](#): > > What have those tax cuts done for the economy over the last decade? The question is what would a tax increase have done for the economy over the last decade? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/46 "2010-11-29T19:34:05Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > You don’t see any correlation between the Bush tax cuts and the tax receipts as percentage of GDP in this chart? > > [http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/current-tax-receipts](http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/current-tax-receipts) > > Not to mention that there is no evidence that the higher taxes on top wage-earners creates a drag on the economy at all, certainly not the modest increase back to Clinton-era rates (when the economy hummed along quite nicely for the most part). > > One might also note that the only years in which we ran a budget surplus were the years in which tax receipts as a percentage of GDP was more like 20% - getting back there might be a good idea, no? Did you bother to read the title of the chart you linked to? Here…take a look at a chart that compares federal tax receipts (as a % of GDP) to top marginal tax rate: > **[Graph of the Day for September 26, 2009](https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/09/graph_of_the_day_for_september_9.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/47 "2010-11-29T19:36:42Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I wasn’t proposing anything. I was discussing which would provide better political cover. I think that depends on his intended audience. Republicans might have preferred some job cuts (although I’m not sure), but I don’t think he is trying to make an impression on them. > [@](#): > > People alter their behavior or shift how they receive compensation in order to lower their tax burden. That is common sense. So raises taxes cannot lead to an increase in revenue because the changes in behavior will always cancel out the entire increase in taxes? That’s not common sense at all. It’s rather bizarre. > [@](#): > > The question is what would a tax increase have done for the economy over the last decade? There would not have been a tax increase. We are talking about expiring tax cuts. And there would have been more tax revenue and a lower deficit. I don’t see how this would have harmed the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/48 "2010-11-29T19:40:24Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Did you bother to read the title of the chart you linked to? Here…take a look at a chart that compares federal tax receipts (as a % of GDP) to top marginal tax rate: > > [Graph of the Day for September 26, 2009 - American Thinker](http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/09/graph_of_the_day_for_september_9.html) Funny, if you look closely it shows that tax receipts dropped as a result of the Reagan and Bush II tax cuts, and tax receipts increased after the Bush I tax increases. But it’s very clever to have such a small chart that it makes hundreds of billions of dollars look like a very small tick on an almost straight line. In any case, comparing the top marginal rate to overall receipts is a really stupid comparison. Whoever thought of that must have received an “F” in macroeconomics. I mean, it’s a really, really, really lame point to make, because a very great number of people pay taxes, and very, very few pay the top marginal rate. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/49 "2010-11-29T19:44:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think that depends on his intended audience. Republicans might have preferred some job cuts (although I’m not sure), but I don’t think he is trying to make an impression on them. Though he may be trying to make an impression on independents who voted against his party a few weeks ago. > [@Marley23](#): > > So raises taxes cannot lead to an increase in revenue because the changes in behavior will always cancel out the entire increase in taxes? That’s not common sense at all. It’s rather bizarre. “Cannot” is different than “do not” > [@Marley23](#): > > There would not have been a tax increase. We are talking about expiring tax cuts. And there would have been more tax revenue and a lower deficit. I don’t see how this would have harmed the economy. Tax increase…expiring tax cut…the only difference is semantics. Also, you assume more tax revenue and lower deficit. You really don’t see how separating people from their money may harm the economy? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/50 "2010-11-29T19:44:12Z")
Well, he may have made a decision for me. In about two years, I am going to be a very desirable employee with some hard-to-find skills that could make a meaningful contribution to national security, and one of my options is the federal government. It’s a lot less money than I could be making somewhere else, but the stability is attractive. If it loses that stability and federal employees become political pawns (the way state workers are in CA), the US government is going to lose it’s ability to attract top talent to critical positions. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/51 "2010-11-29T19:49:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Funny, if you look closely it shows that tax receipts dropped as a result of the Reagan and Bush II tax cuts, and tax receipts increased after the Bush I tax increases. Would that have been caused by the tax cuts or from the recessions? > [@Ravenman](#): > > But it’s very clever to have such a small chart that it makes hundreds of billions of dollars look like a very small tick on an almost straight line. I think you missed the point of the chart. > [@Ravenman](#): > > In any case, comparing the top marginal rate to overall receipts is a really stupid comparison. Whoever thought of that must have received an “F” in macroeconomics. I mean, it’s a really, really, really lame point to make, because a very great number of people pay taxes, and very, very few pay the top marginal rate. Hmmm…are you saying that raising the top rate will do nothing for overall tax receipts? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/52 "2010-11-29T19:52:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > In any case, comparing the top marginal rate to overall receipts is a really stupid comparison. Whoever thought of that must have received an “F” in macroeconomics. I mean, it’s a really, really, really lame point to make, because a very great number of people pay taxes, and very, very few pay the top marginal rate. Exactly. I saw that chart as well and realized immediately that it is worthless. You might as well compare Bill Gate’s marginal tax rates to federal tax receipts and try to make a point based on that. Oh, and right on cue, here is Boehner’s response: [QUOTE=John Boehner] “I welcome President Obama’s announcement, and hope he will build on it by embracing much-needed steps to reduce both the size and the cost of government, including the net federal hiring freeze Republicans propose in our Pledge to America. Without a hiring freeze, a pay freeze won’t do much to rein in a federal bureaucracy that added hundreds of thousands of employees to its payroll over the last two years while the private sector shed millions of jobs. ``` “Today’s action is a clear indication that the Pledge to America, which lays out concrete steps to cut spending and reduce the size of government, is the right plan to address the people’s priorities. Republicans and Democrats don’t have to wait until January to cut spending and stop all the tax hikes. We can – and should – start right now.” ``` [/QUOTE] So yup, “thanks for doing half of what we wanted and taking the heat off of us, now do the rest of what we want and we’ll call it bi-partisan.” ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/53 "2010-11-29T19:56:17Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Hmmm…are you saying that raising the top rate will do nothing for overall tax receipts? No… he’s saying that showing the change for _only_ the top rate, and not the others, masks the overall effects of the changes. If you cut all tax rates (including the low- and middle-class rates, where there is a stimulative effect), you might not see a reduction in revenue if economic growth counteracts it. If you _only_ raise high-income rates (where there is little stimulative effect), then you will almost certainly see higher revenues. You do realize, by the way, that your chart (if you take it to be meaningful) cuts against your argument as well… if a 90% top rate is the same as a 35% one, then why do you care if it goes up to 38%? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/54 "2010-11-29T19:59:50Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > If it loses that stability and federal employees become political pawns (the way state workers are in CA), the US government is going to lose it’s ability to attract top talent to critical positions. Ceasing COLAs for a couple of years is (IMO) considerably shy of creating “instability.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/55 "2010-11-29T20:03:15Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Though he may be trying to make an impression on independents who voted against his party a few weeks ago. I agree. And I think eliminating jobs would draw criticism from the right and left, so I don’t see it helping him with independents. > [@](#): > > “Cannot” is different than “do not” If it can happen, why are you saying it does not happen? > [@](#): > > Tax increase…expiring tax cut…the only difference is semantics. It’s not semantics. You asked how a tax increase would have helped the economy, and I was pointing out that there wouldn’t have been a tax increase. The tax cuts would not have existed. That’s not semantics. > [@](#): > > Also, you assume more tax revenue and lower deficit. I don’t think that’s an assumption. The government has spent more money than it took in, so there is a deficit. If it takes in more revenue, the deficit is smaller. > [@](#): > > You really don’t see how separating people from their money may harm the economy? I see how it may, yes. In this case don’t see how it does. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/56 "2010-11-29T20:16:41Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Would that have been caused by the tax cuts or from the recessions? It’s your chart, and you’re already dissembling that it means anything? Boy, your argument popped like a balloon. > [@](#): > > I think you missed the point of the chart. No, I think I understand the point of the chart. It’s to make lousy economic arguments between unrelated issues and display them on deceptive eye-charts to make the uninformed observer think that tax policy is irrelevant to economic growth, without actually having to show that the economy fared better during those times when taxes on the very wealthy were higher. > [@](#): > > Hmmm…are you saying that raising the top rate will do nothing for overall tax receipts? No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that the people who work at the think-tank are either stupid or lying when they imply that the top marginal rate is any kind of useful indicator of overall tax policy. But if that is what you are saying, what’s the harm in raising the top rate to 39%? It won’t make any difference to anyone, according to your flawed chart. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/57 "2010-11-29T20:48:44Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Ceasing COLAs for a couple of years is (IMO) considerably shy of creating “instability.” I grew up in a family of California state workers, and saw very clearly how “let’s fuck with the state worker’s paychecks” became a very easy way to get some cheap political points, to the detriment of ordinary people working ordinary office jobs. Politicians wanting to look like they are “doing something” would decide to stop issuing state worker’s paychecks (or whatever) and it was my family that had to pay. I have choices my family members didn’t have, and if this becomes a trend among federal employees, I will quite quickly find it preferable to work for federal contractors. They will still be paying me either way, but at least with a contractor you know if your paycheck is at risk it is for real financial reasons, not just someone wanting to make it a show of “sticking it to those lazy government employees.” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/58 "2010-11-29T21:58:53Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > No… he’s saying that showing the change for _only_ the top rate, and not the others, masks the overall effects of the changes. If you cut all tax rates (including the low- and middle-class rates, where there is a stimulative effect), you might not see a reduction in revenue if economic growth counteracts it. > > If you _only_ raise high-income rates (where there is little stimulative effect), then you will almost certainly see higher revenues. > > You do realize, by the way, that your chart (if you take it to be meaningful) cuts against your argument as well… if a 90% top rate is the same as a 35% one, then why do you care if it goes up to 38%? To me, the more important point to that graph is that tax revenue has remained remarkably consistent, regardless of changes to the tax code. Over the years there have been increases and decreases in just about every form of tax, yet revenue doesn’t seem to change much. The main conclusion to draw from that is that raising tax rates is not likely to get you to a balanced budget - not when you’d have to raise more than 5% of GDP to do it. There’s simply no precedent in American tax history for a change in revenue like that. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/59 "2010-11-29T22:10:34Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > Is this a smart political move to show that he is serious about addressing the deficit? Two years late. But a step in the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301/60 "2010-11-29T22:21:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Spending cuts don’t do shit. We need to stop handing out free money to rich people. I didn’t realize “we” were handing out money. That’s a bummer. I still have the Andrew Jackson in my wallet that I had yesterday. Did I miss it when I gave some of my money to rich people? I might have been asleep, I realize. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-freezes-federal-worker-pay-for-2-years/562301.md?page=4)