# Obama girls and Affirmative Action **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2008, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056 "2008-02-25T07:47:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paper\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9adbd/32.png) [@Paper\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paper_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/1 "2008-02-25T07:47:28Z")
If Barack Obama is elected President, will the Obama girls be the beneficiaries of race based affirmative action by the time they go to college? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9511964#post9511964](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9511964#post9511964) If Obama becomes President, then it seems to me that there is a pretty good argument that race based affirmative action can be ratcheted back a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/2 "2008-02-25T16:06:21Z")
Wouldn’t the argument be as good/bad whether Obama were President or Senator from Illinois? ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/3 "2008-02-25T16:14:23Z")
[QUOTE=Paper Pusher] If Barack Obama is elected President, will the Obama girls be the beneficiaries of race based affirmative action by the time they go to college? [/QUOTE] Potentially, but more importantly, they will be the beneficiaries of the kind of bias that historically African-Americans have not had in their favor – that of being connected to the right people. > [@](#): > > If Obama becomes President, then it seems to me that there is a pretty good argument that race based affirmative action can be ratcheted back a little bit. The existence of one or more counter-examples is not indicative of the dissipation of systemic discrimination against African-Americans. For the record, I don’t actually want to get into an argument about the existence of said discrimination. Rather, I want to point out that if we start with the premise that there _is_ systemic discrimination, Obama’s success does not in any way show that the discrimination no longer exists. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/4 "2008-02-25T16:51:46Z")
[QUOTE=MilTan] Rather, I want to point out that if we start with the premise that there _is_ systemic discrimination, Obama’s success does not in any way show that the discrimination no longer exists. [/QUOTE] And apparently nothing ever will. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/5 "2008-02-25T16:58:52Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] And apparently nothing ever will. [/QUOTE] Except for statistical evidence of income parity between blacks and whites. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/6 "2008-02-25T22:34:01Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Except for statistical evidence of income parity between blacks and whites. [/QUOTE] ROTFLMAO! Yeah, right! If you believe that, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you. Cash only, in small, unmarked bills. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/7 "2008-02-25T23:32:37Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] ROTFLMAO! Yeah, right! If you believe that, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you. Cash only, in small, unmarked bills. [/QUOTE] Believe what, exactly? That it’s possible to statistically prove income parity? ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/8 "2008-02-25T23:43:16Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] Believe what, exactly? That it’s possible to statistically prove income parity? [/QUOTE] Income disparity doesn’t prove discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/9 "2008-02-26T00:06:08Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] ROTFLMAO! Yeah, right! If you believe that, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you. Cash only, in small, unmarked bills. [/QUOTE] Blacks and hispanics earn, on average, about 60% of what whites and asians do. I would argue that if we’re looking at what criteria to use to determine if we should scale back affirmative action, statistical methods are superior to anecdotes about successful individuals. When blacks, on average, earn roughly what whites do … when they attend college at roughly the same rate whites do … when they hold positions of power in government and industry at roughly the same rate whites do … then we can say that American is finally free of the taint of racism and affirmative action is unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/10 "2008-02-26T00:22:09Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Blacks and hispanics earn, on average, about 60% of what whites and asians do. I would argue that if we’re looking at what criteria to use to determine if we should scale back affirmative action, statistical methods are superior to anecdotes about successful individuals. When blacks, on average, earn roughly what whites do … when they attend college at roughly the same rate whites do … when they hold positions of power in government and industry at roughly the same rate whites do … then we can say that American is finally free of the taint of racism and affirmative action is unnecessary. [/QUOTE] Affirmative action was never necessary and never should have been instituted in the first place. And now that we’ve got it, the left is going to do everything they can to keep it and expand it as much as possible. No matter how much progress blacks and Hispanics make, the left will always blame whites for all their troubles, never concede that sufficient progress has been made and will never concede that it’s time to eliminate AA. So it’s pointless to discuss what criteria should be used for deciding when to end affirmative action. The left doesn’t want it to end and will never accept any such criteria. So far as the left is concerned, whites will always be guilty of racism and no evidence can ever exonerate them. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/11 "2008-02-26T01:57:41Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Affirmative action was never necessary and never should have been instituted in the first place. [/QUOTE] Whether it was necessary or not would greatly depend on whether it was the solution needed to meet its goals. How would you accomplish the goals that were meant to be resolved via AA? > [@](#): > > And now that we’ve got it, the left is going to do everything they can to keep it and expand it as much as possible. Yes, in fact next on our list is preferential college admissions for [snippy little faggots](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9139582&postcount=227). > [@](#): > > No matter how much progress blacks and Hispanics make, the left will always blame whites for all their troubles, never concede that sufficient progress has been made and will never concede that it’s time to eliminate AA. How did the blacks and hispanics make this progress? How do you define sufficient? > [@](#): > > So it’s pointless to discuss what criteria should be used for deciding when to end affirmative action. The left doesn’t want it to end and will never accept any such criteria. So far as the left is concerned, whites will always be guilty of racism and no evidence can ever exonerate them. I’ll be perfectly happy to have it end, just as soon as bigotry is history. Feel free to help the process along. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/12 "2008-02-26T03:00:19Z")
Setting aside the point **LonesomePolecat** seems to be making – which seems to be that racism in America stopped in 1964 – I wonder if the OP would consider what should happen if, God forbid, Obama is assassinated by someone who cannot stand the thought of a black president. If that were to happen, would he support reparations for slavery? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/13 "2008-02-26T03:24:16Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] How did the blacks and hispanics make this progress? How do you define sufficient? [/QUOTE] How did Asians end up grouped with whites in the “oppressor” role rather than ending up as the perenially “oppressed”? And as **dgrdfe** pointed out, income disparity does not prove discrimination, as it could easily be due to differing priorities. (Artists are predominantly poor. Does society discriminate against artists, and should art majors get hiring preferences?) ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/14 "2008-02-26T03:57:20Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] How did Asians end up grouped with whites in the “oppressor” role rather than ending up as the perenially “oppressed”? [/QUOTE] I’m not familiar with anyone who thinks that they’re “oppressors.” If you do consider them such, perhaps you can answer your own question. After that, perhaps you’d like to tackle answering my questions, the ones you quoted. > [@](#): > > And as **dgrdfe** pointed out, income disparity does not prove discrimination, as it could easily be due to differing priorities. (Artists are predominantly poor. Does society discriminate against artists, and should art majors get hiring preferences?) Well, considering that “artist” is a career choice, and not a gender nor a “racial” characteristic, I’m not sure why you think that’s relevant. Feel free to enlighten us. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/15 "2008-02-26T04:12:10Z")
The Obama girls will get accepted to any college they apply to with a generous scholarship because they’re the president’s kids, not because they’re black. Colleges will _kill_ to get someone of that prestige to attend. ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/16 "2008-02-26T04:32:34Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] Well, considering that “artist” is a career choice, and not a gender nor a “racial” characteristic, I’m not sure why you think that’s relevant. Feel free to enlighten us. [/QUOTE] Perhaps I am confused, but I thought that the insinuation was that because blacks make less than whites or don’t appear “enough” in certain occupations, then this is proof that they are discriminated against. My, and I believe **athelas** ’s, point was that this could easily be due to career choices or priorities. ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/17 "2008-02-26T04:37:54Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Blacks and hispanics earn, on average, about 60% of what whites and asians do. [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/18 "2008-02-26T04:43:15Z")
[QUOTE=dgrdfd] Perhaps I am confused, but I thought that the insinuation was that because blacks make less than whites or don’t appear “enough” in certain occupations, then this is proof that they are discriminated against. My, and I believe **athelas** ’s, point was that this could easily be due to career choices or priorities. [/QUOTE] I wasn’t insinuating anything in the question that **athelas** quoted. The questions were very specifically targetted to **LonesomePolecat** ’s statements. If you (or **athelas** ) happen to know what answers he’d give, you can certainly answer for him. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/19 "2008-02-26T04:49:38Z")
[QUOTE=dgrdfd] Cite? [/QUOTE] Just Google “per capita income race”. This isn’t some government secret, you know … . :rolleyes: > **[Swivel.com](http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/10484766)** [http://www.sces.org/lmi/data/trends/perCapita/income10.asp](http://www.sces.org/lmi/data/trends/perCapita/income10.asp) > **[Household income in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States)** > > Household income is an economic measure of one household's total income. This measure can be aggregated across households for a geographic unit such as county, city, region or country. It is commonly used by the United States government and private institutions to describe a household's economic status or to track economic trends in the US. Household income is often defined as gross (pre-tax) wage income, excluding benefits and transfers from government welfare programs. > A key aggregate is ... ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056/20 "2008-02-26T05:16:37Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Just Google “per capita income race”. This isn’t some government secret, you know … . :rolleyes: > **[Swivel.com](http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/10484766)** [http://www.sces.org/lmi/data/trends/perCapita/income10.asp](http://www.sces.org/lmi/data/trends/perCapita/income10.asp) > **[Household income in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States)** > > Household income is an economic measure of one household's total income. This measure can be aggregated across households for a geographic unit such as county, city, region or country. It is commonly used by the United States government and private institutions to describe a household's economic status or to track economic trends in the US. Household income is often defined as gross (pre-tax) wage income, excluding benefits and transfers from government welfare programs. > A key aggregate is ... [/QUOTE] Thanks for the cites, but they really don’t prove much of anything. Sure blacks earn less than whites, but is that in and of itself evidence of discrimination (and thus the need for AA)? We know that the reason women only make “75 cents per dollar that a man does” is due to: > [@](#): > > When women behave in the workplace as men do, the wage gap between them is small. June O’Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found that among people ages 27 to 33 who have never had a child, women’s earnings approach 98 percent of men’s. Women who hold positions and have skills and experience similar to those of men face wage disparities of less than 10 percent, and many are within a couple of points. Claims of unequal pay almost always involve comparing apples and oranges. > [@](#): > > Women make different choices, and those choices affect how they work. Women often place more importance on their relationships - caring for children, parents, spouses, etc. - than on their careers. A study by the Center for Policy Alternatives and Lifetime television found that 71 percent of women prefer jobs with more flexibility and benefits than jobs with higher wages, and nearly 85 percent of women offered flexible work arrangements by their employers have taken advantage of this opportunity. > [@](#): > > Women are more likely to enter and leave the workforce to raise children, take care of elderly parents or move with their families. Working mothers are nearly twice as likely to take time off to care for their children as are working fathers in dual-earner couples. Yet time out of the workforce is an enormous obstacle to building an attractive resume and working up the corporate ladder. Women 25 years of age and over have been with their current employer 4.4 years, on average, compared to 5.0 years for men. Data from the National Longitudinal Survey reveal that women between the ages of 18 and 34 have been out of the labor force 27 percent of the time, in contrast to 11 percent for men. Women ages 45 to 54 who have recently re-entered the workforce after a five- or 10-year break are competing against men who have had 20 years of continuous experience. > [@](#): > > Beyond work behavior, women gravitate to sectors of the economy that compensate workers at lower levels. While women hold 53 percent of all professional jobs in the United States, they hold only 28 percent of jobs in professions averaging $40,000 or more in annual compensation. Source: [http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba392/](http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba392/) Now I didn’t intend to derail this into ANOTHER gender wage equality discussion, but I think this illustrates a very important point about the topic at hand. In order to use these statistics we really need to compare apples to apples. I don’t think simply looking at median wages is enough. > [@](#): > > A recent survey by the Center for the Study of Sport in Society found that two-thirds of African American males between the ages of 13 and 18 believe that they can earn a living playing professional sports (more than double the proportion of young white males who hold such beliefs). Source: [http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/mar99eitzen.htm](http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/mar99eitzen.htm) Maybe they are more willing to take higher risks for the possibility at greater reward? I haven’t read any studies on what types of careers blacks and other minorities choose in comparison to whites so if anyone has them then I would appreciate it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-girls-and-affirmative-action/439056.md?page=2)