Though, if it should turn out that the distribution of career choices for various populations are markedly statistically different, perhaps one reason would be that the opportunities available to them are markedly statistically different, including, possibly, in terms of access to higher education and “networking”. Which would be precisely the sort of thing affirmative action is intended to address.
[QUOTE=dgrdfd]
Sure blacks earn less than whites, but is that in and of itself evidence of discrimination (and thus the need for AA)?
[/QUOTE]
It’s not conclusive by itself. But there’s plenty of other evidence to support the contention that discrimination against blacks is still a significant problem. For example studies have been done to compare how often blacks and whites are offered bank loans. When black and white couples with nearly identical financial histories apply for loans, the black couples are rejected at a significantly higher rate than the white couples.
The extreme overt racism of 50 years ago is now beyond the pale in most parts of the United States, but that doesn’t mean that more subtle forms of prejudice don’t still linger and exert a drag on the prospects of black Americans.
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
Wouldn’t the argument be as good/bad whether Obama were President or Senator from Illinois?
[/QUOTE]
No I think that having a Black president means a lot more than a Black senator. If there were 10 or 12 Black senators then mabye but not when there is only one from a northern state that refers to itself as the land of Lincoln.
[QUOTE=MilTan]
The existence of one or more counter-examples is not indicative of the dissipation of systemic discrimination against African-Americans.
[/quote]
You don’t think that President of the United States is a particularly significant example?
I don’t think I ever said that Obama’s success shows systemic discrimination nolonger exists. I asked if his success indicates that we may have progressed fa enough that we might be able to ratchet things back a bit. Perhaps we can focus on socioeconomic affirmative action instead of race based affirmative action (if you must have affirmative action).
Is there any indicator short of everyone in this country making the same amount of money that would indicate a sufficient reduction in systemic discrimination that we can get rid of race based affirmative action?
[QUOTE=Pochacco]
Except for statistical evidence of income parity between blacks and whites.
[/QUOTE]
So we need race based affirmative action until we get there? We can’t start shfting to socioeconomic affirmative action anytime before that parity is achieved?
[QUOTE=Pochacco]
Blacks and hispanics earn, on average, about 60% of what whites and asians do.
I would argue that if we’re looking at what criteria to use to determine if we should scale back affirmative action, statistical methods are superior to anecdotes about successful individuals. When blacks, on average, earn roughly what whites do … when they attend college at roughly the same rate whites do … when they hold positions of power in government and industry at roughly the same rate whites do … then we can say that American is finally free of the taint of racism and affirmative action is unnecessary.
[/QUOTE]
I have long been a supporter of affirmative action but your position seems to indicate that ALL socioeconomic disparity between blascks and hispanics on the one hand and whites and asians on the other is the result of racism and therefore requires affirmative action.
Hispanics do not have a legacy of slavery and asians weren’t exactly welcomed with open arms here either. I understand that there is a legacy to slavery and segregation but how much of the remaining legacy is race based rather than socioeconomic?
Asians are underrepresented in congress and they have much lower incomes per income earner than whites in the same zip code with the same education level so why don’t we need more affirmative action for Asians?
At some point don’t we say we have made some progress and we can ease off the accelerator a little bit?
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
Affirmative action was never necessary and never should have been instituted in the first place. And now that we’ve got it, the left is going to do everything they can to keep it and expand it as much as possible. No matter how much progress blacks and Hispanics make, the left will always blame whites for all their troubles, never concede that sufficient progress has been made and will never concede that it’s time to eliminate AA. So it’s pointless to discuss what criteria should be used for deciding when to end affirmative action. The left doesn’t want it to end and will never accept any such criteria. So far as the left is concerned, whites will always be guilty of racism and no evidence can ever exonerate them.
[/QUOTE]
Never necessary? Really? You think the playing field was always level?
[QUOTE=Ravenman]
Setting aside the point LonesomePolecat seems to be making – which seems to be that racism in America stopped in 1964 – I wonder if the OP would consider what should happen if, God forbid, Obama is assassinated by someone who cannot stand the thought of a black president. If that were to happen, would he support reparations for slavery?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know what I would do if anything happened to Obama. I am a long time supporter of affirmative action as a necessary injustice to remediate the effects of 400 years of injustice. A necessary injustice that treats the Bush twins the same as the kids growing up in Appalachia. A necessary injustice that would give preference to the Obama girls over the children of poor white trash. I long for the day when we can optomistically shift our focus from race to socioeconomic factors.
What makes you think I don’t support some form of reparations (even if only symbolic) now?
[QUOTE=Pochacco]
It’s not conclusive by itself. But there’s plenty of other evidence to support the contention that discrimination against blacks is still a significant problem. For example studies have been done to compare how often blacks and whites are offered bank loans. When black and white couples with nearly identical financial histories apply for loans, the black couples are rejected at a significantly higher rate than the white couples.
The extreme overt racism of 50 years ago is now beyond the pale in most parts of the United States, but that doesn’t mean that more subtle forms of prejudice don’t still linger and exert a drag on the prospects of black Americans.
[/QUOTE]
Is anyone saying that racism doesn’t exist? Do we need economic parity to prove the lack of racism? What exactly has caused the decline of racism among Asians? It has gone down by so much that by your metric, white people are being discriminated against and need affirmative action vis-a-vis Asians.
[QUOTE=DMC]
Whether it was necessary or not would greatly depend on whether it was the solution needed to meet its goals. How would you accomplish the goals that were meant to be resolved via AA
[/quote]
I would never have tried to achieve such absurd goals. It is ridiculous to believe that blacks, Hispanics or any other ethnic or racial group should be proportionally represented across all income levels, in all the professions, and in the halls of power. Such thinking is so simple-minded and shallow I don’t even know how to begin showing you how wrongheaded it is.
[QUOTE=DMC]
Yes, in fact next on our list is preferential college admissions for snippy little faggots
[/quote]
You really do need to get over that.
[QUOTE=DMC]
How did the blacks and Hispanics make this progress? How do you define sufficient?
[/quote]
I don’t care how much progress they’ve made or haven’t made. I stopped caring a long time ago, and affirmative action is one of the reasons that I stopped caring. I’m concerned with my rights here, not theirs. You can’t reasonably discriminate against tens of millions of poor and working class whites in education and employment in the name of equality and social justice. It’s monstrous.
I am violently opposed to affirmative action. By that, I mean that violence would be morally justified in opposing it, though not a wise or practical course of action at this time.
[QUOTE=DMC]
I’ll be perfectly happy to have it end, just as soon as bigotry is history.
[/QUOTE]
“Bigotry” will never be history. The behaviors and attitudes you’re describing as “bigotry” are instincts such as tribalism, status-seeking and territoriality that evolved over millions of years, before our ancestors even became human. Yet you think they can be made to go away if we all just hold hands and sing “Kumbaya” or keep on hounding whites with endless accusations of racism.
[QUOTE=DMC]
Feel free to help the process along.
[/quote]
Why in the world would I want to join in your never-ending witch hunt against “racism?”
[QUOTE=Paper Pusher]
What makes you think I don’t support some form of reparations (even if only symbolic) now?
[/QUOTE]
For one thing, I think the case for Affirmative Action is much more reasonable and broadly accepted than is the case for reparations. It’s rather hard for me to imagine the logic behind arguing for less Affirmative Action while arguing for more in the way of reparations.
I don’t follow this at all. In a perfectly egalitarian society, why would there be any socio-economic differences between races?
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
It is ridiculous to believe that blacks, Hispanics or any other ethnic or racial group should be proportionally represented across all income levels, in all the professions, and in the halls of power.
[/quote]
Could you at least try to explain why you think the idea is ridiculous?
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
Affirmative action was never necessary and never should have been instituted in the first place. And now that we’ve got it, the left is going to do everything they can to keep it and expand it as much as possible. No matter how much progress blacks and Hispanics make, the left will always blame whites for all their troubles, never concede that sufficient progress has been made and will never concede that it’s time to eliminate AA. So it’s pointless to discuss what criteria should be used for deciding when to end affirmative action. The left doesn’t want it to end and will never accept any such criteria. So far as the left is concerned, whites will always be guilty of racism and no evidence can ever exonerate them.
[/QUOTE]
Speaking as a (white) liberal (and asking out of morbid curiousity), why is it that I would never, under any circumstances, support an end to affirmative aciton?
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
I would never have tried to achieve such absurd goals. It is ridiculous to believe that blacks, Hispanics or any other ethnic or racial group should be proportionally represented across all income levels, in all the professions, and in the halls of power. Such thinking is so simple-minded and shallow I don’t even know how to begin showing you how wrongheaded it is.
[/QUOTE]
This being Great Debates and all, how about giving it a shot.
Actually, I don’t. Your bigotry is your problem, and since I’m straight, it wouldn’t affect me personally under any circumstances. I find many positions execrable that don’t affect me personally.
Oh, we’re quite aware of that.
Shocked, I tell you.
I don’t doubt that for a second.
While this is a bogus claim (got cites?), since you don’t seem to be a big fan of equality and social justice anyway, why would you care about the poor little whites? Fuck’em and let them find their own out, right?
But it would be interesting to see it attempted.
Did we evolve at different rates? I’m certainly well beyond those things.
There are plenty of whites for whom the tag racist or bigot doesn’t apply to. There are plenty for whom they do apply. I have no problems with the former, while I find the latter to be abhorrent.
Because ending racism would be a good thing, perhaps?
[QUOTE=DMC]
I don’t doubt that for a second.While this is a bogus claim (got cites?), since you don’t seem to be a big fan of equality and social justice anyway, why would you care about the poor little whites?
[/QUOTE]
Because I am one of the “poor little white ones.”
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
Because I am one of the “poor little white ones.”
[/QUOTE]
So do what the blacks and hispanics are supposed to do. Get a job.
[QUOTE=Miller]
Speaking as a (white) liberal (and asking out of morbid curiousity), why is it that I would never, under any circumstances, support an end to affirmative aciton?
[/QUOTE]
Because liberals will never admit that affirmative action no longer serves any useful purpose, no matter what the facts are–and you’ve proven yourself pretty much a typical liberal (i.e. utterly unconcerned with facts).
[QUOTE=DMC]
This being Great Debates and all, how about giving it a shot.
[/quote]
Why bother?
[QUOTE=DMC]
Actually, I don’t. Your bigotry is your problem …
[/quote]
Apparently it’s only bigotry when white people do it.
[QUOTE=DMC]
… and since I’m straight, it wouldn’t affect me personally under any circumstances. I find many positions execrable that don’t affect me personally.
[QUOTE=DMC]
You still need to get over it.
[QUOTE=DMC]
I don’t doubt that for a second.While this is a bogus claim (got cites?)
…
[/quote]
First present cites which show that AA has no appreciable impact on lower class whites. This is another one of the many things that makes it so tiresome to try to reason with liberals. Somehow or other, they never seem to think that it’s their responsibility to present facts.
[QUOTE=DMC]
…since you don’t seem to be a big fan of equality and social justice anyway …
[/quote]
Not as defined by liberals, anyway. I’ve seen too many liberals living in gated communities sending their kids to private schools who nevertheless presume to dictate to Joe Sixpack types like me what the demographics of our communities and schools must look like. Like a chickenhawk, the hypocrisy reeks.
[QUOTE=DMC]
…why would you care about the poor little whites?
[QUOTE=DMC]
Ah, yes, open contempt for working class whites. I knew that’d come out sooner or later.
[QUOTE=DMC]
… Fuck’em and let them find their own out, right?
[/quote]
No, quit fucking us with AA.
[QUOTE=DMC]
But it would be interesting to see it attempted. Did we evolve at different rates? I’m certainly well beyond those things. There are plenty of whites for whom the tag racist or bigot doesn’t apply to. There are plenty for whom they do apply. I have no problems with the former, while I find the latter to be abhorrent.
[/quote]
The moral arrogance here would be laughable if it weren’t so sickening. Again, if you think that you have somehow magically risen above human nature, you are really, really kidding yourself.
[QUOTE=DMC]
Because ending racism would be a good thing, perhaps?
[/QUOTE]
“Racism” is never going to be ended.
Affirmative Action, engaging the Peter Principle in state bureaucracies across the nation.
They won’t be shortlisted at Princeton or U of C because they are black, they’ll be shortlisted because they are the President’s daughters. They’ll receive a similar benefits package to Chelsea Clinton.