# Obama grabs shovel, starts slinging mud **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734 "2008-10-06T20:02:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/1 "2008-10-06T20:02:51Z")
Starting here: > **[Amazon.com. Spend less. Smile more.](https://www.keatingeconomics.com/)** > > Free shipping on millions of items. Get the best of Shopping and Entertainment with Prime. Enjoy low prices and great deals on the largest selection of everyday essentials and other products, including fashion, home, beauty, electronics, Alexa... First, I think this is surprising. Although people like refer to it in a rather insuating manner, the fact is that McCain really did nothing wrong. Keating was his consituent. He got dragged through the mud for political ‘fairness’. [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE4DA133EF93AA1575AC0A966958260](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE4DA133EF93AA1575AC0A966958260) Maybe this is why he’s so adamant about not meeting foreign leaders without precondition. He’s already been tagged once in his life for for meeting someone when it _appeared_ bad. Obama’s reputation was that he was above this, but he has now lost any high ground he claimed in regards to campaign practices. Even worse, it is coming directly from his campaign, not a 529 group. Why did Obama do this? He is winning and pulling away in the polls? Why sully his reputation? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/2 "2008-10-06T20:05:54Z")
In retaliation for Palin’s nonsensical “palling around with terrorists” jab. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/3 "2008-10-06T20:08:42Z")
Because McCain _announced_ his intention to start throwing the phantom images of Ayers, Wright and Rezko at him. At least the Keating 5 actually happened. McCain was admonished and censured. The only reason nothing more serious happened to him was because he was in a jurisdictional limbo at that point. The issues with Keating happened while he was in the House. By the time everything came out, he was in the Senate. The Senate couldn’t punish something that happened in the House, and the House couldn’t punish a senator. How lucky John McCain was! And, if you actually ask the people who’ve been behind Obama from the start, most of them are going to tell you that it’s about fucking time he started throwing some actual punches. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/4 "2008-10-06T20:10:17Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Why did Obama do this? He is winning and pulling away in the polls? Why sully his reputation? Because McCain sunk into the mud first, and if history teaches us anything, it is that the guy who stays out of the mud when his opponent dives in, gets creamed at the polls. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/5 "2008-10-06T20:15:37Z")
He protected one constituent at the expense of all of the rest who had to foot th bill for the S&L failure. Some might think this is revelatory of his character. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/6 "2008-10-06T20:17:56Z")
I’m definitely not thrilled about this. In an ideal world, politics wouldn’t be negative, we’d be treated like adults, and we’d talk about legitimate issues. I don’t think Obama does himself a whole lot of favors by slinging mud. But I can’t get too worked up over it. Yes, I’m an Obama partisan. But McCain’s been negative all campaign and is gearing up to go even _more_ negative. Obama’s just bringing a gun to a gun fight, it seems like. I think it’s pretty clear that the American public wants to see some fight in their presidential candidate, and Obama’s just fighting on the terrain McCain has chosen. And frankly, he’s doing it better. Ayers, Wright–we did this to death in the primaries. Obama is throwing Keating in McCain’s face, and that’s something that the average voter hasn’t heard too much about this cycle. By the time everyone figures out that it maybe isn’t such a big deal, the damage will have been done. Again, not happy about it, but I don’t see McCain leaving Obama an alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/7 "2008-10-06T20:19:42Z")
He was not just a constituent. Keating was a vacation buddy, political donor, recipient of McCain’s family investment money, etc. This \*is \*completely relevant; McCain was at the forefront of the last big financial meltdown in America, and he’s now done nothing to show he’s learned or grown in the last 20 years. What did he actually do during this past week’s bailout negotiations? His party is shockingly silent. Keating was a crook who helped usher in the S&L crisis, McCain received more than $100,000 from him in campaign donations, McCain received free vacations from him, Cindy and her father invested a boatload of money in a business of his. Tell me again what Ayers’ sins have fuck-all to do with Obama? And then tell me why Palin is bringing it up? If you can’t see why Obama is bringing up the Keating Five, well… Obama’s not just pulling some irrelevant thing out of McCain’s past and trying to smear him with it, he’s keeping the focus on the economic crisis by showing that McCain was involved 20 years ago, and he’s still just as clueless and dangerous today. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/8 "2008-10-06T20:21:59Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > I’m definitely not thrilled about this. In an ideal world, politics wouldn’t be negative, we’d be treated like adults, and we’d talk about legitimate issues. I don’t think Obama does himself a whole lot of favors by slinging mud. Same here. But I think if you have to fight, then you want to be the one who doesn’t start it, but does end it. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/9 "2008-10-06T20:24:49Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > McCain was admonished and censured. The only reason nothing more serious happened to him was because he was in a jurisdictional limbo at that point. This isn’t what the senate investigation said. It said that McCain wasn’t further censored because "“actions were not improper nor attended with gross negligence and did not reach the level of requiring institutional action against him…Senator McCain has violated no law of the United States or specific Rule of the United States Senate.” McCain’s wrongdoing in the Keating Five was pretty minor and the senate rightly let him off the hook, which is why we haven’t heard much about it during the campaign. Agree with other posters that this is basically pay-back for the McCain campaign deciding to harp on the fact that Obama once was in the same room as Ayers. And it has the added bonus that the Savings And Loans scandal of which Keating was part is reminiscent of the current US financial troubles, while Ayers is reminiscent of violent 60’s radicalism which isn’t really something most people spend a lot of time worrying about these days. So while I don’t think McCain’s involvement in the Keating Five was that terribe, I think it will hurt him more then Ayers is likely to hurt Obama, and it was stupid of him to give the Dems an excuse to bring it up. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/10 "2008-10-06T20:25:17Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > McCain was admonished and censured. That is false. McCain was not censured. Censure was on the table for the top 3 guys (the ones, you know, that actually _did_ something) , but none of them were actually censured. > [@](#): > > The only reason nothing more serious happened to him was because he was in a jurisdictional limbo at that point. The issues with Keating happened while he was in the House. By the time everything came out, he was in the Senate. The Senate couldn’t punish something that happened in the House, and the House couldn’t punish a senator. You are mixing up the events. The Keating 5 involved the Senators meeting with federal regulators. The incident you are talking about was that McCain did not immediately reimburse Keating for trip expenses. However, since he did indeed reimburse those (before the investigation), there was really no point. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/11 "2008-10-06T20:25:54Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Why sully his reputation? Far from sullying his reputation, this reasonable bit of aggressiveness shows that Obama actually has the balls that it takes to be president in the _real_ world. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/12 "2008-10-06T20:27:00Z")
This is just giggle inducing. McCain/Palin come out, unapologetically, smearing with the whole Ayers thing … going as far as to say, essentially, “Hey everybody! We’re getting mean now. Watch, we’re going to Ayer things out.” (heh heh) And Obama comes out with one damning ad, which also relates almost directly to the mess we’re in now economically and it’s – “Obama grabs a shovel and slings mud,” in a tone in the OP which is akin to “Hey, Obama just raped a nun!” I especially love the canard that since Obama “claimed to be above this all” this is obviously proof that the man is a congenital liar. It’s like Hannity, with less panache. Actually, it carries about the same panache there, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/13 "2008-10-06T20:28:56Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > He protected one constituent at the expense of all of the rest This is also false. It was very specifically found that he **didn’t** do anything out of the ordinary for Keating. Rather, he was cited because meeting with the regulators might _appear_ unethical. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/14 "2008-10-06T20:30:01Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > What did he actually do during this past week’s bailout negotiations? His party is shockingly silent. He pissed off other conservatives mostly: > [@](#): > > Under the pressure of the financial crisis, one presidential candidate is behaving like a flustered rookie playing in a league too high. It is not Barack Obama. > > Channeling his inner Queen of Hearts, John McCain furiously, and apparently without even looking around at facts, said Chris Cox, chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, should be decapitated. This childish reflex provoked the Wall Street Journal to editorialize that “McCain untethered” – disconnected from knowledge and principle – had made a “false and deeply unfair” attack on Cox that was “unpresidential” and demonstrated that McCain “doesn’t understand what’s happening on Wall Street any better than Barack Obama does.” > > \ > > It is arguable that, because of his inexperience, Obama is not ready for the presidency. It is arguable that McCain, because of his boiling moralism and bottomless reservoir of certitudes, is not suited to the presidency. Unreadiness can be corrected, although perhaps at great cost, by experience. Can a dismaying temperament be fixed? > > [SOURCE: George Will: Washington Post, September 23, 2008](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202583.html) ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/15 "2008-10-06T20:31:59Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Obama’s reputation was that he was above this, but he has now lost any high ground he claimed in regards to campaign practices. Even worse, it is coming directly from his campaign, not a 529 group. > > Why did Obama do this? He is winning and pulling away in the polls? Why sully his reputation? You falsely assume people enmass think Obama has overstepped his moral fortitude. Some people may say this, but the majority of the people I associate with, and know and understand in the Obama community, think that there is 29 days left and he’s got to do whatever it takes to make it into office. He can taste it, they both can. [well, I don’t know if McCain can taste anything, he may have lost that sense in the war!] They are going to do whatever it takes right now. Obama has remained above the fray long enough…he doesn’t deserve to lose that designation twenty-some days before election day. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/16 "2008-10-06T20:32:11Z")
ETA (missed edit window, so seperate post): And while we’re discussing why this is a stupid tactic (ahem) for McCain, its even stupider to broadcast ahead of time that they’re going to start playing this game. Had McCain’s campaign suddenly started airing a bunch of Ayers/Rezko ads today, it would’ve been a big story and taken the Obama people at least a day or two to match it with the Keating thing. Instead the McCain camp decided to leak that they were about to go negative days ago and gave the Obama people time to have a counter-punch ready to share the headlines today. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/17 "2008-10-06T20:32:56Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Far from sullying his reputation, this reasonable bit of aggressiveness shows that Obama actually has the balls that it takes to be president in the _real_ world. Yeah, you know, I get pretty tired of people alluding to the Democrats as a bunch of surrender-prone, effete, terrorist-coddling French people and then crying like schoolchildren the second one of them tears a page out of the GOP playbook. Obama isn’t dumb. He didn’t get here by playing nice with everyone. He knocked out his first opponent in Chicago (Alice Palmer) by disqualifying him within the rules. So much the better. I think most of us can agree that there are situations in our geopolitical climate that call for not-very-nice things. Like guns. And bombs. And if your political opponent says you hang out with terrorists, I think you have to come back with, “yeah well you hang out with a dude who fucked our economy pretty hard.” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/18 "2008-10-06T20:33:35Z")
Okay, I apparently did have the wrong incident in mind. My bad, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/19 "2008-10-06T20:37:03Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > ETA (missed edit window, so seperate post): And while we’re discussing why this is a stupid tactic (ahem) for McCain, its even stupider to broadcast ahead of time that they’re going to start playing this game. Had McCain’s campaign suddenly started airing a bunch of Ayers/Rezko ads today, it would’ve been a big story and taken the Obama people at least a day or two to match it with the Keating thing. Instead the McCain camp decided to leak that they were about to go negative days ago and gave the Obama people time to have a counter-punch ready to share the headlines today. Apparently McCain believes in “not saying it out loud” only when planning to attack Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/20 "2008-10-06T20:41:05Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Watch, we’re going to Ayer things out." (heh heh) > And Obama comes out with one damning ad, Strangely enough, McCain _announces_ he might air negative ads, and Obama beats him to the punch. I don’t by that this ad/site is reactionary. The website and video certainly weren’t created in a day. I think the second the Obama campaign saw that the financial mess gave a boost to his poll numbers, he started working on this site. On top of this, a recent study just came out that showed Obama has been airing a higher percent of negative ads than McCain [http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/17/obama\_airs\_more\_negative\_ads\_s.html](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/17/obama_airs_more_negative_ads_s.html) Regarding the Keating site, I encourage everybody to go to the downloads section and read the letters John McCain supposedly wrote on behalf of Keating. They are about as damning as the note my wife left me this morning to take out the garbage. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734.md?page=2)