# Obama grabs shovel, starts slinging mud **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734 "2008-10-06T20:02:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/21 "2008-10-06T20:44:44Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Instead the McCain camp decided to leak that they were about to go negative days ago and gave the Obama people time to have a counter-punch ready to share the headlines today. Not like the Obama campaign had to go scratching for some dirt all of a sudden. Keating-5 was waiting in the drawer ready to be dusted off at an opportune moment. McCain gave them the pretext and the Obama campaign was ready for it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/22 "2008-10-06T20:44:59Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Strangely enough, McCain _announces_ he might air negative ads, and Obama beats him to the punch. Apparently you missed the Palin speech in which she accuses Obama of “palling around with terrorists”? He doesn’t need to wait for any ad campaign. McCain started it, now Obama can finish it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/23 "2008-10-06T20:49:15Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Regarding the Keating site, I encourage everybody to go to the downloads section and read the letters John McCain supposedly wrote on behalf of Keating. They are about as damning as the note my wife left me this morning to take out the garbage. We all know politics is about perception. McCain & Co. wants to paint Obama as a terrorist because he had a marginal association with Ayers. No one is buying it except those already in the bag for McCain. The Keating-5 thing will hurt McCain more. Nevermind if it has about as much merit as the Ayers bit…it will resonate more because: A) It is a new thing for the Obama camp to throw while McCain has been beating the Ayers drum to little effect for a long time now (not to mention it being used in the primaries) and B) It is more relevant to the public because it smacks of the problems currently facing and scaring the shit out of everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/24 "2008-10-06T20:49:33Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > I don’t by that this ad/site is reactionary. The website and video certainly weren’t created in a day. I think the second the Obama campaign saw that the financial mess gave a boost to his poll numbers, he started working on this site. I have no doubt the Dems have been working on Keating related campaign material since the minute it became obvious that McCain would be the GOP nominee (on preview, what **wack-a-mole** said). But, as you say, Obama has an image as someone campaigning on the issues, and so they couldn’t really release them till McCain gave them an excuse. And McCain gave them as about a clear excuse as anything I’ve ever seen. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a campaign blatantly declare “we’re about to start using nonsense character attacks, starting next Monday” before. Especially when they know there opponent is sitting on a pretty effective retaliation. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/25 "2008-10-06T20:50:21Z")
> [@sinaijon](#): > > […] the fact is that McCain really did nothing wrong. Keating was his consituent. He got dragged through the mud for political ‘fairness’. Keating wasn’t merely McCain’s “constituent”. He was a significant campaign contributor and close associate. McCain vacationed at Keating’s place in the Bahamas, fer chrissake. This wasn’t just a case of Joe Constituent phoning up his hard-working elected representative and saying “Um, hello, Senator? My name’s Charles Keating and I’m from your state, and there are some gummint guys from the regulatory agency coming around asking me questions, and could you tell me if they’re maybe out of line here?” and the hard-working senator replying “Sure thing, Mr., um, Keeling, I’ll look into that right away and make sure the investigation process is fair!” This is why the Senate Ethics Committee concluded that McCain’s behavior in intervening with the regulators who were investigating Keating showed “poor judgment”. You don’t poke your nose into a criminal investigation involving one of your political buddies, or try to persuade regulators to back off of him, even if what you’re doing is not actually illegal. Sure, I completely agree that McCain was acquitted of actually violating US law or Senate rules, and therefore should not be treated like a criminal on this account. However, I have no problem at all with the Obama campaign reminding the American public that McCain’s record of poor judgment goes back a long way. > [@Sinaijon](#): > > Why did Obama do this? He is winning and pulling away in the polls? Why sully his reputation? Hmm, so it’s okay for losers to sully their reputations with negative campaigning, but not for winners? Or is it that it’s okay for Republicans, but not for Democrats? I’m all for civility and taking the high road in political contests, but I don’t think the McCain campaign has a leg to stand on if they start whining about Obama being mean to them. Pot, meet Kettle. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/26 "2008-10-06T20:50:56Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#): > > Some people may say this, but the majority of the people I associate with, and know and understand in the Obama community, think that there is 29 days left and he’s got to do whatever it takes to make it into office. So, in your own mind, you are OK with Obama running negative ads? ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/27 "2008-10-06T20:51:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Strangely enough, McCain announces he might air negative ads, and Obama beats him to the punch. > > I don’t by that this ad/site is reactionary. The website and video certainly weren’t created in a day. Of course they weren’t. When McCain announced that he was going hard negative and personal today, he might as well have announced that the sun would come up today, too. Obama’s camp didn’t have to wonder if McCain would start pushing the Ayers/Rezco/Wright crapola again; it was just a matter of when. They’ve been sitting on this until the gloves really needed to come off. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/28 "2008-10-06T20:51:50Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Regarding the Keating site, I encourage everybody to go to the downloads section and read the letters John McCain supposedly wrote on behalf of Keating. They are about as damning as the note my wife left me this morning to take out the garbage. Or about as damning as, say, a bunch of UIC records regarding Ayers, Obama and the Annenberg Challenge, eh? ---
**Author:** ![xanthous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/53a042/32.png) [@xanthous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthous)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/29 "2008-10-06T20:53:22Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I don’t think I’ve ever seen a campaign blatantly declare “we’re about to start using nonsense character attacks, starting next Monday” before. Especially when they know there opponent is sitting on a pretty effective retaliation. Perhaps an attempt at a “gotcha”? i.e. “We didn’t actually _do_ the negative attacks, we just _said_ we might, and look how _willing_ Obama is to go negative!” ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/30 "2008-10-06T20:53:28Z")
[QUOTE=Sinaijon] Why did Obama do this? He is winning and pulling away in the polls? Why sully his reputation? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Sinaijon] On top of this, a recent study just came out that showed Obama has been airing a higher percent of negative ads than McCain [http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/17/obama\_airs\_more\_negative\_ads\_s.html](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/17/obama_airs_more_negative_ads_s.html) [/QUOTE] Oh sweet Obama, why do you sully your reputation built on a history of doing more negative campaigning? Sinaijon, I hope that Obama can find it in his heart to listen to you, the dispassionate observer. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/31 "2008-10-06T20:54:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The Keating-5 thing will hurt McCain more. Nevermind if it has about as much merit as the Ayers bit…it will resonate more because: A) It is a new thing for the Obama camp to throw while McCain has been beating the Ayers drum to little effect for a long time now (not to mention it being used in the primaries) and B) It is more relevant to the public because it smacks of the problems currently facing and scaring the shit out of everyone. The Keating-5 thing (which I agree, is substantively pretty weak stuff) also hurts McCain more then Ayers hurts Obama because McCain himself admitted that it was “the worst mistake of my life”. It’s hard for him to brush it off as a silly non-issue with that quote floating around, even if his actual wrongdoing was pretty minor. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/32 "2008-10-06T20:56:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m all for civility and taking the high road in political contests, but I don’t think the McCain campaign has a leg to stand on if they start whining about Obama being mean to them. But Obama is ahead in the polls and pulling away! All indications are that he will win easily. He didn’t need to drudge this up. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/33 "2008-10-06T20:59:46Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > On top of this, a recent study just came out that showed Obama has been airing a higher percent of negative ads than McCain > > [http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/17/obama\_airs\_more\_negative\_ads\_s.html](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/17/obama_airs_more_negative_ads_s.html) Did you read that article? Your summary of it is basically the opposite of what it says. > [@WP](#): > > arack Obama aired more negative advertising last week than did the Arizona senator, says a new study released today. …Ken Goldstein, who directed the study by the Wisconsin Advertising Project, based at the University of Wisconsin, says **the pattern was a reversal from earlier months in which McCain’s advertising was consistently more negative than Obama’s.** So for months, Obama has been less negative, except for one particular week right after the GOP convention. Your summary “Obama has been airing a higher percent of negative ads than McCain” is not correct. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/34 "2008-10-06T20:59:55Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > But Obama is ahead in the polls and pulling away! All indications are that he will win easily. He didn’t need to drudge this up. So he should take McCain’s attacks until he’s got a one point lead and there’s five days left until Nov. 4th? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/35 "2008-10-06T21:02:05Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > So, in your own mind, you are OK with Obama running negative ads? I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t be ok with this after McCain came right out and said he was going to get dirty. I would have been pretty ok with it even if McCain had run the cleanest campaign ever to be honest, but i don’t see why anyone at all would have objections at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/36 "2008-10-06T21:03:43Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > But Obama is ahead in the polls and pulling away! All indications are that he will win easily. He didn’t need to drudge this up. Maybe, maybe not. We learned from the Kerry campaign that staying “above” the fray was a losing strategy. The Reps have refined the politics of smear…and they have the balls to whine when the Dems finally grow a pair and hit back with the same tactics? ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/37 "2008-10-06T21:03:45Z")
If i dont misremember, MCain and a number of other Senators went together to see a regulator who was doing things Keating did not like and asked him about it, such a move was NOT common, the man has to have felt intimidated, was it ilegal? nope, unethical as hell? \you betcha!\ ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/38 "2008-10-06T21:04:29Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Obama’s reputation was that he was above this, but he has now lost any high ground he claimed in regards to campaign practices. Obama may have lost the high ground, but only after McCain-Palin got out their shovels and dug their way to an even _lower_ ground. The worst things the Obama campaign has said about McCain simply don’t compare to the worst things the McCain campaign has said about Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/39 "2008-10-06T21:04:41Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > But Obama is ahead in the polls and pulling away! All indications are that he will win easily. He didn’t need to drudge this up. Once again: are you arguing that negative campaigning is acceptable, as long as the candidate who goes negative is losing? After all the savage Republican attack campaigns we’ve seen in Presidential elections in the last couple of decades, I’m having a hard time mustering up sympathy for Republicans or Republican supporters who are shocked and distressed that their candidate is being attacked. Yes, I do indeed deplore the cheapening of political discourse that all this mudslinging produces. But if Republicans don’t like it, to a large extent they have themselves to thank for it. Their credibility as advocates of civility and respect in political conflict is by this time completely shot to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/40 "2008-10-06T21:07:34Z")
Well there is this new Rolling Stone article, [Make Believe Maverick](http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/23316912/makebelieve_maverick/print): > [@](#): > > Charlie Keating, the banker and anti-pornography crusader, would ultimately be convicted on 73 counts of fraud and racketeering for his role in the savings-and-loan scandal of the 1980s. That crisis, much like today’s subprime-mortgage meltdown, resulted from misbegotten banking deregulation, and ultimately left taxpayers to pick up a tab of more than $124 billion. Keating, who raised more than $100,000 for McCain’s race, lavished the first-term congressman with the kind of political favors that would make Jack Abramoff blush. McCain and his family took at least nine free trips at Keating’s expense, and vacationed nearly every year at the mogul’s estate in the Bahamas. There they would spend the days yachting and snorkeling and attending extravagant parties in a world McCain referred to as “Charlie Keating’s Shangri-La.” Keating also invited Cindy McCain and her father to invest in a real estate venture for which he promised a 26 percent return on investment. They plunked down more than $350,000. > > McCain still attributes the attention to nothing more than Keating’s “great respect for military people” and the duo’s “political and personal affinity.” But Keating, for his part, made no bones about the purpose of his giving. When asked by reporters if the investments he made in politicians bought their loyalty and influence on his behalf, Keating replied, “I want to say in the most forceful way I can, I certainly hope so.” > [@](#): > > When McCain became a senator in 1986, filling the seat of retiring Republican icon Barry Goldwater, he was finally in a position that a true maverick could use to battle the entrenched interests in Washington. Instead, McCain did the bidding of his major donor, Charlie Keating, whose financial empire was on the brink of collapse. Federal regulators were closing in on Keating, who had taken federally insured deposits from his Lincoln Savings and Loan and leveraged them to make wildly risky real estate ventures. If regulators restricted his investments, Keating knew, it would all be over. > > In the year before his Senate run, McCain had championed legislation that would have delayed new regulations of savings and loans. Grateful, Keating contributed $54,000 to McCain’s Senate campaign. Now, when Keating tried to stack the federal regulatory bank board with cronies, McCain made a phone call seeking to push them through. In 1987, in an unprecedented display of political intimidation, McCain also attended two meetings convened by Keating to pressure federal regulators to back off. The senators who participated in the effort would come to be known as the Keating Five. > > “Senate historians were unable to find any instance in U.S. history that was comparable, in terms of five U.S. senators meeting with a regulator on behalf of one institution,” says Bill Black, then deputy director of the Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corporation, who attended the second meeting. “And it hasn’t happened since.” > > Following the meetings with McCain and the other senators, the regulators backed off, stalling their investigation of Lincoln. By the time the S&L collapsed two years later, taxpayers were on the hook for $3.4 billion, which stood as a record for the most expensive bank failure — until the current mortgage crisis. In addition, 20,000 investors who had bought junk bonds from Keating, thinking they were federally insured, had their savings wiped out. > > “McCain saw the political pressure on the regulators,” recalls Black. “He could have saved these widows from losing their life savings. But he did absolutely nothing.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734.md?page=3)