# Obama grabs shovel, starts slinging mud **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734 "2008-10-06T20:02:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/141 "2008-10-07T19:44:12Z")
I can say with certainty that if McCain had stopped that speech and called that man out, stating his disapproval in no uncertain terms, that he would have shown some leadership qualities. The fact that he didn’t and that Palin didn’t means to me that they tacitly condone such slings and behavior. No they are not responsible for the shit spewn by their supporters. They ARE responsible for showing leadership when such things occur. They have chosen to not do so. ---
**Author:** ![happ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@happ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happ)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/142 "2008-10-07T20:22:10Z")
Going back even further than Kerry, George McGovern didn’t fight back and ended up losing to Nixon in a landslide. That’s why you have to respond. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27008437/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27008437/) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/143 "2008-10-07T20:25:57Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > They ARE responsible for showing leadership when such things occur. They have chosen to not do so. Well, it’s a good thing they aren’t asking the American people to give them a job that requires leadership ability… oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/144 "2008-10-07T20:32:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > To be fair, though, you can’t hold a candidate or his/her campaign staff **directly** responsible for all the outright vicious and/or cretinous things that the candidate’s supporters may say, even if the campaign has been flirting with insinuations or innuendos meant to evoke vicious and/or cretinous ideas. Yes and no. I have already posted (rather strongly on a couple of occasions) that judging a candidate simply by some undefined number of that candidate’s supporters is very stupid. On the other hand, when people unrelated to the Obama campaign made attacks on Governor Palin and Obama publicly stated that those attacks were wrong and that he would fire people in his campaign who participated in those attacks, one of the more strident opponents of Obama on this board claimed that Obama “had” to do that to look good even though he “knew” that others would continue to do the dirty work for him. Here we have evidence of both McCain and Palin simply standing by and not even bothering to condemn the hateful actions carried out in their presences. Clearly, Obama did not “have” to issue his statements, (McCain and Palin certainly did not), and he has demonstrated far more integrity (on this issue) than his opponents have. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/145 "2008-10-07T20:47:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In retaliation for Palin’s nonsensical “palling around with terrorists” jab. Obama retaliates !?!?! Maybe she should have said that he was “neighboring” around with a terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/146 "2008-10-07T20:53:36Z")
The problem is, Obama only has one house, so it is easier to tell who is neighbors are. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/147 "2008-10-07T21:10:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > If the need is for a brawl analogy I like this. McCain is a drunk in a bar swinging a wild punch. Obama is the target, a martial arts expert who grabs the drunk’s arm, throws him foward and then hits him down on the way without spilling his drink along the way. McCain may want to just stay down. I’d like to go back a few months to a comment by Karl Rove and expand on your analogy a bit. Obama would actually be the guy at the country club function with the martini in his hand, making comments about a rival that are astute but the rival and his friends characterize as snide and mean. On this particular night, the rival (of course, McCain) gets blind drunk, takes a swing and is taken down by Obama with jujutsu – actually using the rival’s own force against him – with nary a martini spill or a muss of his tuxedo. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/148 "2008-10-07T21:21:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, Obama is using the Cecilian Defense, then? It’s really only appropriate to characterize it that way if **DrDeth** is likely to change his vote as a result. 'cos that would be going up against a Cecilian when **Deth** is on the line. Get it?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/149 "2008-10-07T21:25:43Z")
> [@flex727](#): > > Yes, that’s what Bush said before we went into Iraq. No, the difference is that Iraq never threw a sucker or any other type of punch. The Taliban did, which is why invading Afghanistan is justified and invading Iraq wasn’t. Maybe McCain will justify the attacks by saying Obama was hiding ads of mass destruction or something. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/150 "2008-10-07T21:31:12Z")
> [@stolichnaya](#): > > With the exception that Iraq did not hit us first. > > What we’ve\*\*\* really \*\*\*got here is that old movie trope where the good guy has the chance to finish off the villain, but he lets him live, which kind of dissapoints the audience a bit, but whatever. And then TWIST! the villain refuses to be captured, or grabs a gun from Cop #1’s holster, and then suicidally lunges at the hero who, reluctantly, has to kill him. In self defense. Obama standing over McCain: I’ve got here the truth, the most powerful political weapon in the world. Now, I don’t remember if I’ve used up all my money on ads or not. You feeling lucky, punk? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/151 "2008-10-07T21:56:20Z")
Just was reading that now they’re bringing up McCain’s early-to-mid 1980s associations with the World Anti-Communist League, which was tied to Iran-Contra and ostensibly helped to finance (run?) death squads in Central America. McCain “allegedly” resigned from this group after he learned what they were up to. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/152 "2008-10-07T22:09:10Z")
And resigned again two years later, after Jack Anderson wrote some columns on the WACL’s ties to Nazis and anti-semitic crazies. You can’t quit an outfit like that too many times. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/153 "2008-10-07T22:26:29Z")
> [@happ](#): > > Going back even further than Kerry, George McGovern didn’t fight back and ended up losing to Nixon in a landslide. That’s why you have to respond. > [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27008437/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27008437/) Well, McGovern also got very little support of any kind from the Democratic establishment. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/154 "2008-10-07T22:41:11Z")
Here’s something interesting. Even the Republican/conservative folks on this forum – while believing that bringing up the Keating 5 is “slinging mud” – have stated that this is a different tack for the Obama campaign, which has otherwise run a clean campaign. Apparently Cindy McCain disagrees. [In her opinion, Obama has “waged the dirtiest campaign in American history.”](http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081007/NEWS0206/81007055) So: Revealing some arguable facts/opinions about something that actually happened in McCain’s past, behavior that the congress called ‘poor judgment’ and that McCain himself regrets/labels a mistake = the dirtiest campaign in U.S. history. Claiming that Obama’s a terrorist’s “best friend” and continues to “pal around with terrorists”; ignoring slurs and violent threats against Obama; calling him anti-American and “dangerous”; and dismissing years of helping a community as having no responsibilities = noble, clean campaigning. I understand being protective of your husband. But this is utterly ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/155 "2008-10-07T22:44:17Z")
> [@choie](#): > > this is utterly ridiculous. Well, we only have _her word_ that she’s off the drugs now, don’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/156 "2008-10-07T22:52:21Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > If somebody sucker punches you from behind in the kidney, I think it’s fine to turn around and respond with an upper cut to the jaw. Why wait for him to turn around so you can sucker punch him back, especially if you’ve been landing well scored upper cuts all night? As others have pointed out, this is a lousy analogy. A sucker-punch is what you do when someone isn’t expecting a fight at all. McCain couldn’t possibly sucker-punch Obama, given that the two are in a fight already. And Obama’s response couldn’t possibly be a sucker-punch, given that the two are in a fight already. As for pounding McCain on the issues already working well, I repeat: that wasn’t enough after the Pub convention. Obama has decided that he needs to go negative to counteract McCain’s negative attacks. Pardon me if I trust his political instincts more than yours. **Cervaise** , I appreciate the distinction. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/157 "2008-10-07T23:27:26Z")
> [@Sinajon](#): > > If somebody sucker punches you from behind in the kidney, I think it’s fine to turn around and respond with an upper cut to the jaw. Why wait for him to turn around so you can sucker punch him back, especially if you’ve been landing well scored upper cuts all night? Here’s my take on the perceived switch in Obama’s tactics: Sarah Palin said Obama “palled around with terrorists”. That’s the political equivalent of calling him a cunt. If Obama had ignored this, he would have looked like a spineless pussy. Spineless pussies who let soulless creationist bumpkins walk all over them, generally don’t win elections. That’s why he went negative. He knew that to stay “above the fray” once the attacks had gotten as vile as they had, would make him look like a weakling. He is pursuing this new strategy for the same reason he pursued his previous strategy: It’s a vote winner. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/158 "2008-10-07T23:41:24Z")
I also think it was strategically brilliant for the campaign to wait until now to go negative for two more reasons: 1. They knew McCain would start slinging more and more mud as the election got closer and have carefully chosen the direction and focus of their counter punches for greatest accuracy and effective; and 2. Now that Obama has started to swing back, there will be a shorter time period in which he will be perceived as having gone negative, as well as having the advantage of it being able to accurately say McCain went there first and has stayed low for the longer period of time. (P.S. Who else thinks Cindy’s comment that “Obama has waged the dirtiest campaign in American history” is a setup up for them to attack Michelle? Let’s just say, of all the cans of worms that McCain has opened lately, he doesn’t want to open that one.) ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/159 "2008-10-07T23:42:57Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Here’s something interesting. Even the Republican/conservative folks on this forum – while believing that bringing up the Keating 5 is “slinging mud” – have stated that this is a different tack for the Obama campaign, which has otherwise run a clean campaign. > > Apparently Cindy McCain disagrees. [In her opinion, Obama has “waged the dirtiest campaign in American history.”](http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081007/NEWS0206/81007055) > > So: Revealing some arguable facts/opinions about something that actually happened in McCain’s past, behavior that the congress called ‘poor judgment’ and that McCain himself regrets/labels a mistake = the dirtiest campaign in U.S. history. > > Claiming that Obama’s a terrorist’s “best friend” and continues to “pal around with terrorists”; ignoring slurs and violent threats against Obama; calling him anti-American and “dangerous”; and dismissing years of helping a community as having no responsibilities = noble, clean campaigning. > > I understand being protective of your husband. But this is utterly ridiculous. Well, I have it on good authority that Cindy McCain _is_ [a cunt](http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/McCain_temper_boiled_over_in_92_0407.html), so really, what else would you expect from her? > [@](#): > > P.S. Who else thinks Cindy’s comment that Obama has waged the nastiest campaign in history is a setup up for them to attack Michelle. Let’s just say, of all the cans of worms McCain has opened lately, he doesn’t want to open that one. For McCain’s sake, I hope not. Obama would bring the thunder down. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734/160 "2008-10-07T23:51:53Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Well, I have it on good authority that Cindy McCain _is_ [a cunt](http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/McCain_temper_boiled_over_in_92_0407.html), so really, what else would you expect from her? I’m going to have to side with the distinguished Senator from Arizona on this one. Or at least it seems he’s correct, and who am I to disagree, from the few glimpses I’ve had of her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-grabs-shovel-starts-slinging-mud/466734.md?page=9)