# Obama has to dress down, he's busy cleaning up your puke! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642 "2009-02-05T23:51:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/241 "2009-02-07T19:42:18Z")
In fact, reading more of what Scylla’s been writing about style, he should have a column in Men’s Wear Daily (or whatever the male equivalent of Vogue is). That’s not snark. You’re really good at it Scylla and I agree with just about everything. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/242 "2009-02-07T19:53:20Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I suppose if you’re carrying a hammer you spend a lot of time looking for nails. The only one concerned about race here is you. No, your post wasn’t approved by [than is comfortable"]me]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10792898&postcount=132](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10792898&postcount=132)[/url) either. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/243 "2009-02-07T20:48:16Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > No, your post wasn’t approved by [than is comfortable"]me]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10792898&postcount=132](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10792898&postcount=132)[/url) either. Didn’t think that bullshit merited comment the first time around. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/244 "2009-02-07T20:56:29Z")
I think a lot of people in this thread are confusing the _description_ of a convention with the _legitimation_ of a convention. Of course, some in the thread are saying, simply, “You’re wrong that there’s any such convention.” That’s one thing. But a lot of people in the thread are saying “Fuck you for saying that about black people,” which it seems is a response to a percieved _legitimation_ of the convention Scylla’s describing. But he’s not saying anything about how people should be percieved. Rather, he’s making claims about how people _are_ percieved. And there’s nothing to get angry about when it comes to that. They are simply factual claims. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/245 "2009-02-07T20:56:30Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Didn’t think that bullshit merited comment the first time around. Doesn’t make you less wrong, as many others have pointed to you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/246 "2009-02-07T21:12:00Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’m bald… Oh, you poor dear! No wonder you hate hippies so much! We forgive you. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/247 "2009-02-07T21:44:30Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Yes. Black men (in general, as a statistical trend,) look better bald then white men do. I’m honestly surprised someone would disagree with this. > > This isn’t meant (by me or **Scylla** ) as an evaluation of black men. It’s an evaluation of style languages. > > I’m not so great at fashion stuff myself. But even I know this thing about baldness. 😛 > > -FrL- Did you read both quotes, or skip right to the second? The “WTF?” was based on the two of them together. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/248 "2009-02-07T22:01:35Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > He looks good. He dresses well. Because of his race, his complexion, and his angular body he has a tendency to look overly formal, but he does a good job of mitigating this with his smile. His race has nothing to do with how well he pulls a suit together. This is stupid talk, **Scylla**. Forgot, for a sec, that he checks “African American” on the census sheet. Obama has the kind of complexion that goes well with just about everything. I don’t think he looks too formal in anything, but even that were so, his racial membership would be the last thing I’d attribute to that. Why would I? Not every black man looks the same in a suit, and neither do white guys. The impressions you get when you see a black guy in a suit says more about you than them. Please recognize that. > [@](#): > > Had you read my post intelligently you wouldn’t think I was directing this specifically at Obama, for whom it’s less of an issue, but rather at black men in general for whom, if they darker skin it may be more of an issue. Your comments came in the immediate context of Obama and what he should and should not wear. An intelligent reader puts one and one together. If your comments about waiters and whatnot had nothing to do with him, then I’m wondering why in the hell you felt it necessary to bring that into the conversation. > [@](#): > > In terms of the stereotypes to avoid, Obama does not have the sinister issue, or the Gangster issue, but he does have the waiter issue. Well, I guess I have the answer to my question. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/249 "2009-02-07T22:03:37Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > But he’s not saying anything about how people should be percieved. Rather, he’s making claims about how people _are_ percieved. And there’s nothing to get angry about when it comes to that. They are simply factual claims. They are only perceived like that by the small-dicked, and this needs to be pointed out repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/250 "2009-02-07T22:52:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Anyway, the real question is: _what color would Darth Obama’s lightsaber be?_ He’s no Vader; [he’s a Jedi!](http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/w/A/2/obama_jedi_knight.jpg) And it appears to be purple. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/251 "2009-02-07T23:29:08Z")
I don’t think there’s a graceful way to phrase this, but isn’t his light saber a lot, umm, well…bigger? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/252 "2009-02-07T23:41:47Z")
_:::Le sigh:::_ Reading a style guide or two does not a fashion expert make. Point being is all well and fine to speak (or write in this case) of skin tones and suitable colors, but what’s missing in **Scylla’s** fashion critiques is the plain fact that you _can’t_ talk in generalities about any particular ethnicity. Why? Because there is no continuous line in the spectrum of color when it comes to _any_ race. Beyond that and contrary to popular perception there are NO hard and fast rules in the world of fashion – except for one: wearing your clothes as opposed to having your clothes wear you. Sounds simple but it isn’t for it means being able to see beyond the obvious. As in the A-B-Cs of the “style guides” for one. Sure, they are there to help the totally clueless, but they are really of no concern to those that already have a sense of fashion. For instance, that old staple no brown shoes with navy or black suits? Well, Italians broke that mold decades ago and now it’s not unusual to see more men wearing light brown or camel colored dress shoes against their dark colored suits or pants. Obviously this is not the most formal of looks but for daytime the high contrast of the two is actually quite appealing – normally, you’d match belt to shoes and socks to trousers. Monochromatic a no-no? [It can look great too](http://stylemens.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/25/5.jpg). So, again, it’s all a matter of _style_ not _rules_. To give the reader a mental picture of what I speak of I’ll link to pictures of fairly famous men that do posses said sense of style. They are the ones that know how to choose suit fabrics for their quality, texture, drape and hue and are, in turn, capable of coordinating said choices with the ‘right’ amount of flair in their haberdashery. Of course, what’s right for one individual may look ridiculous in another one. There are actually a myriad of factors involved that go beyond mere skin tone and they would include size, shape, age, circumstances and again, that elusive and innate _chic_\* that transmits a confident, personal elegance that goes beyond the clothing itself. Not many people have it and it can’t really be taught. Some links:-[Two of the best dressed men in America](http://www.naacpldf.org/images/content/JImmelt_KChenault_VJordan.jpg). I’ll let you figure out which two I speak of. You could also google people like Bob Costas, George Clooney, Daniel Craig and the late Peter Jennings just off the top of my bald pate. Or else check out this Esquire list from '07 – like or dislike some/all of them, hard to deny they have _their own style_. As does Obama. Right. Have to go.----\>insert whatever task you think I’ll be doing here\<------ \*do kids even know what that word means anymore? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/253 "2009-02-08T00:04:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Reagan & Bush had sufficient respect for the Oval Office that they wouldn’t enter it sans coat and tie. Reagan probably didn’t know _what_ he had on. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/254 "2009-02-08T00:06:55Z")
“Innate and elusive chic”? What are you, a Yurpeen? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/255 "2009-02-08T00:07:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > His race has nothing to do with how well he pulls a suit together. This is stupid talk, **Scylla**. I agree. You are talking stupidly as you argue that Obama’s African American Heritage has nothing to do with his skin color, hair color and texture. > [@](#): > > Forgot, for a sec, that he checks “African American” on the census sheet. Obama has the kind of complexion that goes well with just about everything. Not true. White is a bad color for him as it makes his skin look grayish in contrast. same with black. Light grey’s and browns are also unflattering. > [@](#): > > I don’t think he looks too formal in anything, but even that were so, his racial membership would be the last thing I’d attribute to that. Why would I? Not every black man looks the same in a suit, and neither do white guys. I’m arguing tendencies. You’re translating to absolutes. > [@](#): > > The impressions you get when you see a black guy in a suit says more about you than them. Please recognize that. People spend thousands of dollars to dress and groom themselves. They are usually trying to project an image. I read that image and create an impression. Usually my impression isn’t about the image they are trying to project, but how successful the attempt is, and whether the image they’ve chosen is appropriate. The process doesn’t change from white man to black man, but the images and impressions can. Just for fun let’s look at your earlier links: > [@](#): > > [http://z.about.com/d/mensfashion/1/5/q/b/AlfaniBlack](http://z.about.com/d/mensfashion/1/5/q/b/AlfaniBlack) > [http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/4...5baaa9.jpg?v=0](http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/4...5baaa9.jpg?v=0) > [http://agriculture.tennessee.edu/new](http://agriculture.tennessee.edu/new)…\_to\_retire.htm > [DK Books](http://www.dkimages.com/discover/pre...6/55042109.JPG) -First one doesn’t work -Second one, ok that’s a very nice suit, looks like a Xenia. He’s wearing it badly by putting his shoulders too far back, the chin is high and forward. The lapel is a little wider than I like. Very wide shiny silk tie with. I like the striping of the tie which is great with the shirt and suit. This is a pretty carefully crafted ensemble that clearly goes together, so the impressions created are gonna be deliberate. The big lapel, shiny shirt with big collar, and shiny tie, shaved head and goatee and the projecting forward gives a bit of a zoot suit look. Bit too much of a gangsta look for my taste. Would work excellent for a night out at a nice club or formal date or wedding. The way this guy is carrying himself in the picture suggests to me that he’s not entirely comfortable in it, but that just might be the picture. The impression I have is of a guy who doesn’t wear a suit (or a nice suit) very often and who’s dressing up for an occasion and has chosen something a little too urban, a little too 90s and a little too gangsta. Shirt color works. The tie color is a little too Miami Vice. The suit itself is an excellent choice, a different shirt and tie and it’s a perfect business suit. I’m a big fan of it, as it’s extremely adaptable for different occasions depending on how you accessorize it. Here’s an example of trying too hard. Third picture - Shit! That is a big guy. That’s a very well-tailored suit. That’s a great color, great fit, great shirt and great tie. The photographer should have told him to sit on his suit tail so that it doesn’t pull away in the back. Another deliberate ensemble. Very professional. He handled the problem of the dark suit and his complexion with an excellent choice in a shirt. It’s a very natural transition. He looks exactly like a Dean. That ensemble works equally well in the boardroom. Very nice fine pinstripes. on that suit. Not only is the tie amazing in itself, the maroon brings out mahogany accents in his skin. Professional knot and dimple. Like the way it sticks out, but not too far. Perfect. He should be showing a touch of cuff, but I’m sure his physique keeps pulling it up, but still, it’s a posed picture. The photographer should have caught it. Not sure what’s up with the ring on his right hand. I’m assuming that it’s a school ring. He is after all a Dean. If you are going to wear too gold rings than probably you shouldn’t wear a gold watch, gold watchband. Take the ring off his right hand or give him a leather watchband and he’s perfect. All in all, first class. That’s how to dress! All the more impressive because he has a very difficult body type to dress to. Fourth picture- **Not** a great suit. It’s not tailored correctly. See how it drapes? It needs to be taken in. Looks off the rack. I can’t tell if it’s the color correction on the photo, but the suit looks washed out, like it’s old and dry cleaned too many times. This is an example of the complexion issue I was talking about before. In this case his skin color is richer than the suit and the suit suffers. If his skin was lighter his skin would suffer in the contrast. He should just button the middle button. The shirt and tie are kind of generic. My impression is midlevel guy who either doesn’t know or care how to dress for success. > [@](#): > > Your comments came in the immediate context of Obama and what he should and should not wear. An intelligent reader puts one and one together. Yeah, except you come up with “3” as your answer. > [@](#): > > If your comments about waiters and whatnot had nothing to do with him, then I’m wondering why in the hell you felt it necessary to bring that into the conversation. I’ll be blunt. He’s a young black man. He wears **very** traditional suits as he must, being a politician. He is tall and angular which highlights the thin lapels and ties he is somewhat partial to. He wears white shirts quite often. Put him in a dark tie, and the ensemble makes him either overdressed or as the waiter. Suddenly he doesn’t look Presidential he looks like a young black kid with big ears wearing a waiter uniform. A red tie eliminates that, but now he looks a little too formal a little too overdressed. Take the dean in the second picture. Give him a shiny silk shirt, a blood red tie and sunglasses and now he’s not a dean, he’s a thug or a bodygard. Take the kid in the second picture. Give him a reasonable shirt (For God’s sakes, do you see that! That huge collar is a buttondown) and a subtle tie, teach him to stand and smile and you have a lawyer.) These things are subtle. > [@](#): > > Well, I guess I have the answer to my question. I don’t think you even know the question. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/256 "2009-02-08T00:11:02Z")
Who’s that little blonde nelly guy on _Queer Eye_, who’s the guy-fashion _maven_? Does he know you’re eating his lunch? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/257 "2009-02-08T00:11:37Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Reagan probably didn’t know _what_ he had on. There are photos all over the net showing these guys working in the Oval Office without suits and ties. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/258 "2009-02-08T00:14:03Z")
Not quite what he was on about, **Paul**. Think Reagan…brain…Swiss cheese… ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/259 "2009-02-08T00:16:24Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > _:::Le sigh:::_ > > Monochromatic a no-no? [It can look great too](http://stylemens.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/25/5.jpg). So, again, it’s all a matter of _style_ not _rules_. That’s not monochromatic. There’s quite a bit going on there. Way too busy, IMO. Not the picture I’d choose for an example of somebody looking good. > [@](#): > > Some links:-[Two of the best dressed men in America](http://www.naacpldf.org/images/content/JImmelt_KChenault_VJordan.jpg). I’ll let you figure out which two I speak of. Bad tie on the left. Don’t like the banker collar on the right, but I’m guessing that it’s an older picture when that was in style (didn’t like it then.) > [@](#): > > You could also google people like Bob Costas, George Clooney, Daniel Craig and the late Peter Jennings just off the top of my bald pate. Or else check out this Esquire list from '07 – like or dislike some/all of them, hard to deny they have _their own style_. As does Obama. Busted link. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/260 "2009-02-08T00:51:48Z")
The epitome of Presidential sartorial elegance: [Royalty-Free Stock Photos, Creative Images & Vectors | News, Fashion, and Entertainment imagery - Getty Images](http://pro.corbis.com/images/U85323018.jpg?size=67&uid=%7B2B1A9BCF-8FF8-49EC-AA8E-438ED9A1165F%7D) Talk about entirely too much going on. But I love the quizzical look on the Secret Service guy’s face. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642.md?page=14)