# Obama has to dress down, he's busy cleaning up your puke! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642 "2009-02-05T23:51:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/61 "2009-02-06T05:17:54Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > When he farts at the table during dinner with other heads of state and invites Sarkozy to “get a whiff of that one, Frenchie!” it’ll be worth comment from someone like Andrew Fucking Card. Is it wrong for me to think that would be fucking hilarious? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/62 "2009-02-06T05:20:46Z")
Well put, **Scylla**. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/63 "2009-02-06T05:22:18Z")
On the other hand, when I wear a suit somebody is dead, married, or “The Defendant will rise.” ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/64 "2009-02-06T05:23:54Z")
> [@chacoguy420](#): > > If Obama shows up for the damn [job](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/01/16/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4728085.shtml) > He can dress like [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/Rocky_Horror_2.JPG) for all I care. I would vote for him forever if he did that. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/65 "2009-02-06T05:42:42Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > Cite? :rolleyes: Sorry, I don’t cite the obvious. If you don’t believe me, why don’t you try the little experiment I suggested and find out for yourself? > [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > Obama’s behavior thus far has given all indications that he is able to hold the office of President of the United States with the dignity and respect that it deserves. Then again, that’s what a few of us have said – it’s his behavior that matters, not his clothes. When he farts at the table during dinner with other heads of state and invites Sarkozy to “get a whiff of that one, Frenchie!” it’ll be worth comment from someone like Andrew Fucking Card. Until then, if the best criticism to come from that side of the aisle is “he takes his tie and jacket off!”… I’d say Obama is doing a damn good job. I think this is what’s called an ad hominem argument. Please allow me to give it the attention it deserves: > [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > Do you know for a fact that the leaders of countries the world over have stricter dress codes for their office space? No…which is why I never said they did. What I said – and it’s right upthread if you want to try to go back and read for comprehension – is that leaders from countries all over the world recognize the benefits of dressing in suits and ties when in meetings with each other. This to put the lie to the notion that many of the posters to this thread have expressed, which seems to be that it isn’t important at all for the president to project a well dressed image. > [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > Oh for fuck sake. Shut the fuck up, really. You completely miss the point, and not even gracefully. Bush isn’t Powell’s mama, and it’s likely that the SECRETARY OF STATE was busy doing things that the SECRETARY OF STATE DOES when he arrived a few minutes late. The proper thing to do (and in the interest of security, decorum, and making sure everyone’s on the same page) is to let him into the fucking meeting, and if you MUST, berate him privately afterwards and remind him to be on time next time. I’m afraid you’re the one who missed the point. By locking Powell out of the meeting, the _entire_ Cabinet was made to know that they were expected to be there on time and what would happen if they weren’t. > [@Bosstone](#): > > Being a royal flaming prick over “civilized” attire kind of defeats the point. I’d agree with that. Perhaps the pressures of office were getting to Bush at that point. In this case I’d think merely pointing out to Bartlett in a firm but civil way that his dress wasn’t appropiate would have done just as good a job and would probably been more effective in terms of engendering respect and loyalty. > [@Bosstone](#): > > I think there is a level of dress that does show disrespect; going to work in gym shorts and shirt, even clean, is completely unprofessional, for example. But see, here’s the thing. What if people were arguing to you that there was nothing at all wrong with gym shorts and shirt? Then you’d be right where I am now. So it’s all a matter of perspective and opinion…but, given that leaders the world over seem to feel that it behooves them to wear suits, I’m hard pressed to agree with posters who feel it makes little to no difference. > [@Bosstone](#): > > But as long as you make an effort to look presentable, what you wear has little to no effect on how you do your job. I don’t think anyone’s really argued that in terms of job performance, a person can’t be just as effective if dressed casually. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/66 "2009-02-06T05:55:33Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > When he farts at the table during dinner with other heads of state and invites Sarkozy to “get a whiff of that one, Frenchie!” it’ll be worth comment from someone like Andrew Fucking Card. Or when he gives a foreign head of state an unwanted massage. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/67 "2009-02-06T05:57:05Z")
If we’re talking GQ, and here I agree w/ **Scylla** , we _should_ be, I’ll just add that Biden reflects my taste/style in suits and accessories best – I too favor tab-collars, the modified spread and like, on more than a shirt or two, white, contrasting cuffs&collars and a pinstripe here and there. Half Windsord knot always while lace-up shoes hardly ever. Plenty of dressy slip-ons; won’t tangle with the proper drop of your cuffed trousers. Obama, IMO, continues the American President’s tradition of bland, monochromatic or pinstriped ties, normally in red, blue/black or light blue. Yawn. And the, again IMO, ugly-looking but signature American single-vented jacket. Might be asking for heresy, but I think he’d carry both the two-vented Brit suit as well as the Italian no-vent design, better than any other President in recent memory. Add a Boss, Zegna, or even a BBrother’s printed tie and he’d really make an outward impression. Empty comments obviously as Obama is no fashion icon nor does he desire to be. Well, hot darn if this isn’t a mighty lame post for the Pit, but what the hell – it is so written. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/68 "2009-02-06T06:08:33Z")
And now Andy is a complete retard: [Bush in the Oval Office without a Jacket.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/05/bush-jacketless-in-oval-o_n_164513.html) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/69 "2009-02-06T06:17:18Z")
Fuck Card. Fuck Republicans. Fuck all those who would reduce themselves to the bothersome task of manufacturing small minded criticisms to hurl at the president. Fucking assholes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/70 "2009-02-06T06:22:31Z")
Ten bucks says Obama hasn’t worn a suit in years Michelle didn’t pick out. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/71 "2009-02-06T06:28:12Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > If we’re talking GQ… Add a Boss, Zegna, or even a BBrother’s printed … And so this! THIS! is the hard-handed son of the proletariat, toiling on the docks of Madrid, slugging coarse red wine from leather _pinatas_ and smoking hand-rolled _frijoles_! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/72 "2009-02-06T06:34:52Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’m afraid you’re the one who missed the point. By locking Powell out of the meeting, the entire Cabinet was made to know that they were expected to be there on time and what would happen if they weren’t. Yeah, they’d get locked out by a petulant bully who would rather not have their voice at the meeting than tolerate tardiness with a brief lecture afterwards. Do you actually think this makes Bush look good? ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/73 "2009-02-06T06:38:01Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sorry, I don’t cite the obvious. If you don’t believe me, why don’t you try the little experiment I suggested and find out for yourself? If you state something as fact, I’d like you to back it up with some kind of cite. An unbiased study on behavior, for example. My own experience suggests that people of all fashion tastes get doors held for them. Perhaps having a tailored $2,000 suit gets your foot in the door as far as people listening when you speak, but if you’ve got no substance in your words, they’ll tune out. Obama already has his foot in the door. People listen up when he starts to speak. A suit and tie does little good after the initial “now that I have your attention…” He’s got the attention already. > [@](#): > > No…which is why I never said they did. What I said – and it’s right upthread if you want to try to go back and read for comprehension – is that leaders from countries all over the world recognize the benefits of dressing in suits and ties when in meetings with each other. When has Obama demonstrated that he doesn’t recognize the benefits of dressing in a suit and tie when meeting with other world leaders? > [@](#): > > I’m afraid you’re the one who missed the point. By locking Powell out of the meeting, the _entire_ Cabinet was made to know that they were expected to be there on time and what would happen if they weren’t. The point is that this type of behavior is ridiculous. I’m sure the _entire_ Cabinet was already aware that punctuality was important to Bush. No, by locking Powell out of the meeting, the message was “I’m the President, and what I say goes-- I don’t care if Powell had something important to contribute, or needed to hear something said here today. If he’s got the gall to show up late to a meeting, he can stand in the hallway.” IMO, proper etiquette would suggest that Powell should have been allowed entry without disruption, and later asked “hey, you know I hate it when people are late-- what happened today? Please try to be on time from now on.” ETA: What **Captain Carrot** said. Being a pedantic asshole and locking the door at 1 second past noon, regardless of the plethora of valid reasons someone may be late, does not make you look very dignified, respectful, or mature. > [@](#): > > But see, here’s the thing. What if people were arguing to you that there was nothing at all wrong with gym shorts and shirt? Then you’d be right where I am now. At a point where societal norms and customs have evolved and no longer agree with your personal tastes? > [@](#): > > So it’s all a matter of perspective and opinion…but, given that leaders the world over seem to feel that it behooves them to wear suits, I’m hard pressed to agree with posters who feel it makes little to no difference. You keep saying this. If you’re talking about in their own Oval Offices, I repeat: Do you know for a fact that the leaders of countries the world over have stricter dress codes for their office space? If you’re talking about, as you say above, when in meetings with each other, then I repeat: When has Obama demonstrated that he doesn’t recognize the benefits of dressing in a suit and tie when meeting with other world leaders? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/74 "2009-02-06T06:38:07Z")
> [@Captain Carrot](#): > > Yeah, they’d get locked out by a petulant bully who would rather not have their voice at the meeting than tolerate tardiness with a brief lecture afterwards. Do you actually think this makes Bush look good? I’m not making the assumption that Powell had anything excruciatingly important to add to the meeting that day. Quite the opposite, in fact. It’s pretty easy to analyze the situation and make these kinds of distinctions if you don’t start out with the premise that everything Bush does is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/75 "2009-02-06T06:54:44Z")
The type of people that would treat me any different because I’m wearing a suit on all occasions are not the people I have any respect for. Also, I’ve worn a suit and tie many times… didn’t notice much difference in special treatment. I was uncomfortable, and just couldn’t wait to shed the costume like a snake sheds his fur. Suits all look the same to me. Very boring and uninteresting. Someone can look good in a suit, professional, formal, but that doesn’t impress me on any meaningful level. Shit, some people look capital-H Horrible in a suit, and would look much more professional, intelligent, attractive and conscientious in alternative clothing. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/76 "2009-02-06T07:10:52Z")
I’m surprised no one’s linked to the time Cheney was [innapropriately dressed for the occasion.](http://www.talkleft.com/cheney2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/77 "2009-02-06T07:18:18Z")
Have conservatives completely given up on taking governance seriously? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/78 "2009-02-06T07:18:23Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > …Shit, some people look capital-H Horrible in a suit… Exhibit A. Mark Shields who regularly schools David Brooks on the _Lehrer_ news hour on PBS. His suits look like a fat guy wore them and slept in them, and then Shields puts them on before the show. Bless his heart, he can _put on_ a suit but has no idea how to _wear_ a suit. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/79 "2009-02-06T07:28:25Z")
> [@](#): > > **Scylla** : A black person suited up severely can look overly formal, like they’re trying too hard, or look like a waiter, or look threatening. Trying too hard at what? To be good enough? You think a black person in a suit looks threatening? I don’t understand. > [@](#): > > …at this stage I think Obama is slightly overdoing the “I’m a hardworking but casual man of the people” bit just a little too much. Doubtless he’ll adjust and fine tune as time goes by. But apparently he’s always been a hardworking, casual , man of the people. Maybe it’s not a “bit.” Maybe he’s for real! Wow! Now that would be different! > [@](#): > > **chacoguy420** : Card probably bitched when Kennedy didn’t wear a Top Hat. Actually, [Kennedy _did_ wear a top hat](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/07/inauguration-attire-bring_n_155843.html) – to his inauguration. It was the very common [fedora](http://nadinegoff.blogspot.com/2008/05/fedoras-benches-cars-and-community.html) that he never wore. And soon no other man was wearing one either. I miss them and predict a comeback! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642/80 "2009-02-06T07:33:53Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > If you state something as fact, I’d like you to back it up with some kind of cite. An unbiased study on behavior, for example. My own experience suggests that people of all fashion tastes get doors held for them. Perhaps having a tailored $2,000 suit gets your foot in the door as far as people listening when you speak, but if you’ve got no substance in your words, they’ll tune out. Obama already has his foot in the door. People listen up when he starts to speak. A suit and tie does little good after the initial “now that I have your attention…” He’s got the attention already. A $2,000 suit is hardly what I’m talking about. A suit, period, does the job. And I’m talking generalities. Isn’t it obvious from the things I’ve said in this thread that I’m talking more about societal mores than Obama’s personal dress decisions? > [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > When has Obama demonstrated that he doesn’t recognize the benefits of dressing in a suit and tie when meeting with other world leaders? Obama isn’t the problem in this regard. However many of the posters to this thread seem to be, and my comments were therefore aimed at them. > [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > The point is that this type of behavior is ridiculous. I’m sure the _entire_ Cabinet was already aware that punctuality was important to Bush. No, by locking Powell out of the meeting, the message was “I’m the President, and what I say goes-- I don’t care if Powell had something important to contribute, or needed to hear something said here today. If he’s got the gall to show up late to a meeting, he can stand in the hallway.” IMO, proper etiquette would suggest that Powell should have been allowed entry without disruption, and later asked “hey, you know I hate it when people are late-- what happened today? Please try to be on time from now on.” And the rest of the people in the room, not privvy to the discussion, would come away feeling: Cool, the big guy doesn’t get too cranked when we show up late. And besides, you have no idea what was or wasn’t going on at that meeting, the circumstances behind Bush’s locking the door, and what may or may not have been going on between Bush and Powell at the time. I can numerous reasons why Bush may have ordered the door locked and none of them add up to his being a ‘bully’. Like I said, I’m not hampered by the delusion that everything Bush did was wrong, so I can see the situation more objectively. It’s true that Bush may have been behaving that way, but it’s also true that there are many other factors that might have come into play, and there is absolutely no evidence that Bush’s motives were as you describe. You hate the guy first and assign motives based on that hate. Not an accurate way to assess the situation. > [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > ETA: What **Captain Carrot** said. Being a pedantic asshole and locking the door at 1 second past noon, regardless of the plethora of valid reasons someone may be late, does not make you look very dignified, respectful, or mature. I wonder if you’d be so offended by Bush’s locking the door if it was Cheney who was locked out? Again, you have no idea of anything that was going on there. For all you know, there might have been contention between Powell and Bush and Powell was being passive-aggressive in not showing up on time. Or maybe Powell had advised Bush that he may not be able to make it and Bush wasn’t expecting him. Maybe the meeting was almost over and Bush didn’t want to bring everything to a halt in order to bring Powell in and bring him up to speed about everything that had gone on. Maybe Bush had to leave to catch a plane or meet with a foreign dignitary and for that reason had to make sure the meeting ended on time. Etc., etc., etc. Now it may be that none of these things transpired and what you’re alleging was really the case. The thing is, though, that you have no more idea than I do what was going on that day, and you could be wrong just as easily as I might be. The difference is that I know I don’t know what went on that day. > [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > You keep saying this. If you’re talking about in their own Oval Offices, I repeat: Do you know for a fact that the leaders of countries the world over have stricter dress codes for their office space? Ad hominem. I never said a word about their ‘office space’. I’ve been talking about the fact that that, contrary to the way this thread was going at the time, suits make a difference in the way leaders are percieved and that if that were not so, they wouldn’t invariably wear them when attending important meetings with other leaders. You might recall one clown here said > [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > If you’re talking about, as you say above, when in meetings with each other, then I repeat: When has Obama demonstrated that he doesn’t recognize the benefits of dressing in a suit and tie when meeting with other world leaders? I would be happy to answer this if you could point to where I ever said anything about Obama not recognizing the benefits of wearing suits when meeting world leaders. You might even take note of the fact that I mentioned his wearing them most of the time prior to the election. Look, Obama and his wife are both attractive people who dress very well. I came into this thread because too many people, imo, were claiming that the way the president dresses is of no importance. One dolt even said (oh, wait…that was you :D) that he didn’t care if Obama showed up in the Oval Office in his underwear. My contention is that dress does matter, especially when it comes to people in positions of power and responsibility. What would you think if, on a much lower level, a real estate agent showed up in his underwear to show you a house you might want to buy, or if an investment banker that you were considering investing a large sum of money with greeted you in his bathing suit? It’s nonsense to claim that dress doesn’t matter, and it was to counter those claims that I came into this thread…and now, given that I’m gobsmacked by **RedFury’s** having written a coherent post (:D), and the fact that I’m the designated driver tonight for some friends who’ve been whooping it up while I’ve been posting here, I’m going to have to leave it. And on preview: Goodnight, **Zoe**! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-has-to-dress-down-hes-busy-cleaning-up-your-puke/484642.md?page=5)