Is it wrong for me to think that would be fucking hilarious?
Well put, Scylla.
On the other hand, when I wear a suit somebody is dead, married, or “The Defendant will rise.”
I would vote for him forever if he did that.
Sorry, I don’t cite the obvious. If you don’t believe me, why don’t you try the little experiment I suggested and find out for yourself?
I think this is what’s called an ad hominem argument. Please allow me to give it the attention it deserves:
No…which is why I never said they did. What I said – and it’s right upthread if you want to try to go back and read for comprehension – is that leaders from countries all over the world recognize the benefits of dressing in suits and ties when in meetings with each other. This to put the lie to the notion that many of the posters to this thread have expressed, which seems to be that it isn’t important at all for the president to project a well dressed image.
I’m afraid you’re the one who missed the point. By locking Powell out of the meeting, the entire Cabinet was made to know that they were expected to be there on time and what would happen if they weren’t.
I’d agree with that. Perhaps the pressures of office were getting to Bush at that point. In this case I’d think merely pointing out to Bartlett in a firm but civil way that his dress wasn’t appropiate would have done just as good a job and would probably been more effective in terms of engendering respect and loyalty.
But see, here’s the thing. What if people were arguing to you that there was nothing at all wrong with gym shorts and shirt? Then you’d be right where I am now.
So it’s all a matter of perspective and opinion…but, given that leaders the world over seem to feel that it behooves them to wear suits, I’m hard pressed to agree with posters who feel it makes little to no difference.
I don’t think anyone’s really argued that in terms of job performance, a person can’t be just as effective if dressed casually.
Or when he gives a foreign head of state an unwanted massage.
If we’re talking GQ, and here I agree w/Scylla, we should be, I’ll just add that Biden reflects my taste/style in suits and accessories best – I too favor tab-collars, the modified spread and like, on more than a shirt or two, white, contrasting cuffs&collars and a pinstripe here and there. Half Windsord knot always while lace-up shoes hardly ever. Plenty of dressy slip-ons; won’t tangle with the proper drop of your cuffed trousers.
Obama, IMO, continues the American President’s tradition of bland, monochromatic or pinstriped ties, normally in red, blue/black or light blue. Yawn. And the, again IMO, ugly-looking but signature American single-vented jacket. Might be asking for heresy, but I think he’d carry both the two-vented Brit suit as well as the Italian no-vent design, better than any other President in recent memory. Add a Boss, Zegna, or even a BBrother’s printed tie and he’d really make an outward impression. Empty comments obviously as Obama is no fashion icon nor does he desire to be.
Well, hot darn if this isn’t a mighty lame post for the Pit, but what the hell – it is so written.
Fuck Card. Fuck Republicans. Fuck all those who would reduce themselves to the bothersome task of manufacturing small minded criticisms to hurl at the president. Fucking assholes.
Ten bucks says Obama hasn’t worn a suit in years Michelle didn’t pick out.
And so this! THIS! is the hard-handed son of the proletariat, toiling on the docks of Madrid, slugging coarse red wine from leather pinatas and smoking hand-rolled frijoles!
Yeah, they’d get locked out by a petulant bully who would rather not have their voice at the meeting than tolerate tardiness with a brief lecture afterwards. Do you actually think this makes Bush look good?
If you state something as fact, I’d like you to back it up with some kind of cite. An unbiased study on behavior, for example. My own experience suggests that people of all fashion tastes get doors held for them. Perhaps having a tailored $2,000 suit gets your foot in the door as far as people listening when you speak, but if you’ve got no substance in your words, they’ll tune out. Obama already has his foot in the door. People listen up when he starts to speak. A suit and tie does little good after the initial “now that I have your attention…” He’s got the attention already.
When has Obama demonstrated that he doesn’t recognize the benefits of dressing in a suit and tie when meeting with other world leaders?
The point is that this type of behavior is ridiculous. I’m sure the entire Cabinet was already aware that punctuality was important to Bush. No, by locking Powell out of the meeting, the message was “I’m the President, and what I say goes-- I don’t care if Powell had something important to contribute, or needed to hear something said here today. If he’s got the gall to show up late to a meeting, he can stand in the hallway.” IMO, proper etiquette would suggest that Powell should have been allowed entry without disruption, and later asked “hey, you know I hate it when people are late-- what happened today? Please try to be on time from now on.”
ETA: What Captain Carrot said. Being a pedantic asshole and locking the door at 1 second past noon, regardless of the plethora of valid reasons someone may be late, does not make you look very dignified, respectful, or mature.
At a point where societal norms and customs have evolved and no longer agree with your personal tastes?
You keep saying this. If you’re talking about in their own Oval Offices, I repeat: Do you know for a fact that the leaders of countries the world over have stricter dress codes for their office space? If you’re talking about, as you say above, when in meetings with each other, then I repeat: When has Obama demonstrated that he doesn’t recognize the benefits of dressing in a suit and tie when meeting with other world leaders?
I’m not making the assumption that Powell had anything excruciatingly important to add to the meeting that day.
Quite the opposite, in fact.
It’s pretty easy to analyze the situation and make these kinds of distinctions if you don’t start out with the premise that everything Bush does is wrong.
The type of people that would treat me any different because I’m wearing a suit on all occasions are not the people I have any respect for.
Also, I’ve worn a suit and tie many times… didn’t notice much difference in special treatment. I was uncomfortable, and just couldn’t wait to shed the costume like a snake sheds his fur. Suits all look the same to me. Very boring and uninteresting. Someone can look good in a suit, professional, formal, but that doesn’t impress me on any meaningful level.
Shit, some people look capital-H Horrible in a suit, and would look much more professional, intelligent, attractive and conscientious in alternative clothing.
Have conservatives completely given up on taking governance seriously?
Exhibit A. Mark Shields who regularly schools David Brooks on the Lehrer news hour on PBS. His suits look like a fat guy wore them and slept in them, and then Shields puts them on before the show. Bless his heart, he can put on a suit but has no idea how to wear a suit.
Trying too hard at what? To be good enough? You think a black person in a suit looks threatening? I don’t understand.
But apparently he’s always been a hardworking, casual , man of the people. Maybe it’s not a “bit.” Maybe he’s for real!
Wow! Now that would be different!
Actually, Kennedy did wear a top hat – to his inauguration. It was the very common fedora that he never wore. And soon no other man was wearing one either. I miss them and predict a comeback!
A $2,000 suit is hardly what I’m talking about. A suit, period, does the job.
And I’m talking generalities. Isn’t it obvious from the things I’ve said in this thread that I’m talking more about societal mores than Obama’s personal dress decisions?
Obama isn’t the problem in this regard. However many of the posters to this thread seem to be, and my comments were therefore aimed at them.
And the rest of the people in the room, not privvy to the discussion, would come away feeling: Cool, the big guy doesn’t get too cranked when we show up late.
And besides, you have no idea what was or wasn’t going on at that meeting, the circumstances behind Bush’s locking the door, and what may or may not have been going on between Bush and Powell at the time. I can numerous reasons why Bush may have ordered the door locked and none of them add up to his being a ‘bully’.
Like I said, I’m not hampered by the delusion that everything Bush did was wrong, so I can see the situation more objectively. It’s true that Bush may have been behaving that way, but it’s also true that there are many other factors that might have come into play, and there is absolutely no evidence that Bush’s motives were as you describe. You hate the guy first and assign motives based on that hate. Not an accurate way to assess the situation.
I wonder if you’d be so offended by Bush’s locking the door if it was Cheney who was locked out?
Again, you have no idea of anything that was going on there. For all you know, there might have been contention between Powell and Bush and Powell was being passive-aggressive in not showing up on time. Or maybe Powell had advised Bush that he may not be able to make it and Bush wasn’t expecting him. Maybe the meeting was almost over and Bush didn’t want to bring everything to a halt in order to bring Powell in and bring him up to speed about everything that had gone on. Maybe Bush had to leave to catch a plane or meet with a foreign dignitary and for that reason had to make sure the meeting ended on time. Etc., etc., etc.
Now it may be that none of these things transpired and what you’re alleging was really the case. The thing is, though, that you have no more idea than I do what was going on that day, and you could be wrong just as easily as I might be. The difference is that I know I don’t know what went on that day.
Ad hominem. I never said a word about their ‘office space’. I’ve been talking about the fact that that, contrary to the way this thread was going at the time, suits make a difference in the way leaders are percieved and that if that were not so, they wouldn’t invariably wear them when attending important meetings with other leaders. You might recall one clown here said
I would be happy to answer this if you could point to where I ever said anything about Obama not recognizing the benefits of wearing suits when meeting world leaders. You might even take note of the fact that I mentioned his wearing them most of the time prior to the election.
Look, Obama and his wife are both attractive people who dress very well. I came into this thread because too many people, imo, were claiming that the way the president dresses is of no importance. One dolt even said (oh, wait…that was you :D) that he didn’t care if Obama showed up in the Oval Office in his underwear.
My contention is that dress does matter, especially when it comes to people in positions of power and responsibility. What would you think if, on a much lower level, a real estate agent showed up in his underwear to show you a house you might want to buy, or if an investment banker that you were considering investing a large sum of money with greeted you in his bathing suit?
It’s nonsense to claim that dress doesn’t matter, and it was to counter those claims that I came into this thread…and now, given that I’m gobsmacked by RedFury’s having written a coherent post (:D), and the fact that I’m the designated driver tonight for some friends who’ve been whooping it up while I’ve been posting here, I’m going to have to leave it.
And on preview: Goodnight, Zoe! 