# Obama, I Loves Ya, but STFU about DTV **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 9, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448 "2009-01-09T00:13:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/41 "2009-01-09T14:15:49Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Sorry, but it really is a rich vs. poor thing. Sorry right back at you, no, it isn’t. I know it’s long been fashionable on the SDMB to play the “teh evil rich want to hurt teh poor” card, but I won’t play that game. > [@](#): > > If you aren’t poor, the cost of a converter box probably isn’t a big deal, but if you are poor, it is. You can argue about whether they _could_ afford it if they cut this, that and the other out of their lives, but the point is that if you’re poor paying that much _hurts_. Don’t misrepresent my argument. My argument is, in very clear words, what is the inclusion rate needed to implement a national policy on broadcast spectrum use. Your answer seems to be…well, you don’t really address my substantive question. Some people will get left out, and for them it sucks. But that’s the case with with every government program, every policy decision, even every single thing in life. I ask yet again, where is the cutoff point? What is the magic inclusion number? And whatever number you pick (other than the impossible 100%), tell me how you will address, exactly, the complaints which will come rolling in about your cutoff point. And people have known about this for much, much longer than a year. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/42 "2009-01-09T15:11:55Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > So save a dollar a week for a year. Or buy frozen veggies for a month. Or whatever. > > Look, you make it clear that you have priorities in life that are higher than maintaining TV reception. That’s fine - really - that’s your call. But it is your call, your decision, and if it’s not that important to you, why should it be important to me? But television reception is a constitutional right!!!111!! ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/43 "2009-01-09T15:13:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But television reception is a constitutional right!!!111!! Free speech is a constitutional right, but the government doesn’t have to buy you a 30 second spot during the Superbowl, either. (Yes, I know you were being sarcastic). ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/44 "2009-01-09T15:17:21Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Sorry right back at you, no, it isn’t. I know it’s long been fashionable on the SDMB to play the “teh evil rich want to hurt teh poor” card, but I won’t play that game. > … > > Some people will get left out… So dividing the the country into either rich or poor, which group to you think the most “left outs” will occupy. > [@](#): > > And people have known about this for much, much longer than a year. Yep, so did the manufacturers. Yet less than two years ago, sitting on the shelves of the big box stores were “analog-only” SD TVs. Guess which TV’s in the store were the cheapest. And guess which group bought those TVs. I’ve never had a TV that wasn’t used for at least five years so I’m thinking that this adjustment to new technology hasn’t been very well planned and implemented. I’m all for the new technology. Every TV in my house is equipped for ATSC and my nice fat antenna on my house picks up those digital signals just fine. But I’m in close to a major market broadcast area. If I lived 20 miles farther out from the city my digital reception would be severely limited barring a big investment in a tower antennae. A lot of deep suburb and rural homes are going to have to do a lot more than pay for a converter box. They’re going to need to put big money into a new antennae. And why? To shift the bandwidth from one consumer use to another. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/45 "2009-01-09T15:18:29Z")
I don’t believe anyone is entitled to TV therefore this government subsidy program was bullshit to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/46 "2009-01-09T15:20:44Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Doesnt Obama have a few more important things to worry about? > > Honestly, if he’s spent more than a few minutes lately thinking about this issue, I am not impressed. Look at it cynically. Take the bread and/or circuses from the people and you have a riot on your hands. That’s something any politician is going to pause and look at. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/47 "2009-01-09T15:21:37Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > This whole switchover thing has been a disaster. The government should never have signed off on a plan that required consumers to spend one red cent. Further than that, backwards compatibility should have been mandated, just like in every previous technology change. Horse feathers. The government has no obligation to maintain backward compatibility or to compensate people who own equipment that has been made obsolete. Remember FM radio, the first version, promoted by Edwin Armstrong? I used to own a 220 MHz FM two-way radio. Then a bunch of jerks at UPS convinced the FCC to take the band away from the Amateur Radio Service and give it to UPS. The bastards at UPS never used their new band. A huge amount of two-way radio equipment was made obsolete by new FCC rules in the 1960s. The owners of those radios never got a dime in compensation. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/48 "2009-01-09T15:28:50Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Sorry, what? Digital TV transmitters will have significantly smaller coverage footprints due to signal loss. Whereas an analog TV would show some ghosting, snow or static, the digital TV will simply cut out entirely. Either you are getting enough 1s and 0s for the BER correction or you’re not. > > Second, most of these stations will be transitioning to UHF frequencies. Some will stay VHF. It should be patently clear that for a given transmit power, VHF waves will propagate much further than UHF. There are limited instances where UHF will perform better (especially true in hilly areas), however most transmitters were engineered long ago to deal with this problem (which is simple-- put the transmitting antennas up high). I’ve looked through the FCC coverage maps for analog and digital TV. The coverage areas are almost identical. The FCC has computer models that take into account antenna height, location, transmitter power, frequency, etc. See [http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/](http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/49 "2009-01-09T15:46:36Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > the government doesn’t have to buy you a 30 second spot during the Superbowl, either. BASTARDS! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/50 "2009-01-09T15:54:34Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > That’s not at all what was being suggested. Broadcast TV is one of the few free (directly, anyway) sources of entertainment one can enjoy in the home today. For the first time since your initial purchase of the set, you’re being asked to purchase a $20-$50 converter to continue enjoying the convenience and entertainment of TV. > > That might not be in your entertainment budget. If it’s not, then that truly is unfortunate and I’m sorry you may have to go without TV until such a time when your entertainment budget allows it. > > With all due respect, that’s not a hardship – it’s an inconvenience. TV is by no means a necessity, and while the lack thereof may significantly change the way you get your news or entertainment, it is possible to survive and be happy without. > > The point is, at some point in time, people are going to get left behind. The change is coming, whether it be in February, May, or months beyond. Delaying the switch is going to end up being more trouble than it’s worth – because inevitably, when that time does come, people are going to cry foul again. People will be unhappy again. It may take some time for your entertainment budget to include the purchase of a converter box, but that’s up to you and your financial situation to prioritize. > > Perhaps when the switch is made, we’ll find the distinction between “can’t afford it” and really, truly, honestly can’t afford it. Those who “can’t afford it” will finally have to buy a converter, and having done so, won’t have a need for the coupon they applied for. Theirs will expire, freeing up more to be sent to those who really, truly, honestly can’t afford it. Well said, and in a much more gentle way than I could have done… ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/51 "2009-01-09T15:56:27Z")
I’m not affected by this at all, (love my DirecTV) But, I imagine that whoever is waiting for all this new bandwidth is not even ready to start using it. A few month delay won’t cause them any difficulty I venture (without cite or even a good understanding of who “they” are) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/52 "2009-01-09T15:59:53Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > A one time cost of 40$ can be absorbed by almost anyone, particularly since they have had an entire year to plan for this. There are not too many people with a roof over their heads who cannot manage to put up one dollar a week. Maybe, but it’s bad politics to tell people, “Hey, remember TV, which you’re used to getting for free? Well, if you’ve got an old TV, we’re going to make you pay $40 for a box so you can keep getting it.” ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/53 "2009-01-09T16:12:51Z")
I think the “just can’t do it” problem will be as big as the “can’t afford it”. That digital signal will not reach as far as the analog one does now. It will be interesting to find out which rural areas are cut off. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/54 "2009-01-09T16:19:55Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Maybe, but it’s bad politics to tell people, “Hey, remember TV, which you’re used to getting for free? Well, if you’ve got an old TV, we’re going to make you pay $40 for a box so you can keep getting it.” Old? Like I mentioned before, two years ago TVs with “analog-only” receivers were sitting on store shelves. If I may modify your quote - “Hey, remember TV, which you’re used to getting for free? Well, that TV you bought two years ago that gets a great picture with those rabbit ears - we’re going to make you pay $40 for a box and $200 for an outdoor antennae so you can keep getting it.” Don’t kill yourself trying to install the antennae in February. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/55 "2009-01-09T16:25:54Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > “Hey, remember TV, which you’re used to getting for free? Well, that TV you bought two years ago that gets a great picture with those rabbit ears - we’re going to make you pay $40 for a box and $200 for an outdoor antennae so you can keep getting it.” That’s the way it works. It sucks for some people, we’ve acknowledged that. But by and large, most people in the contrary don’t seem to be up in arms about it–nor will they even notice a difference on February 17. [QUOTE=BubbaDog] That digital signal will not reach as far as the analog one does now. It will be interesting to find out which rural areas are cut off. [/QUOTE] There’s a link upthread to the FCC site, with details on nationwide and local coverage for all markets. In mine, coverage area appears to increase for all affected stations. YMMV, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/56 "2009-01-09T16:33:27Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > 100% agree. > > Here’s your “change” folks. Aren’t you glad you voted for him now? Recession, war, unemployment, converter boxes. Oh yeah… tackling the tough issue first. > > Sorry for the hijack. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread of virulent outrage over something mostly unimportant. G’day. OMG, you’re ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! Obama’s mention of this TV thing COMPLETELY negates all the positive reasons to vote for him! We’re all doomed! By god, I was in agreement with Obama on virtually every important issue but I wish McCain was in office right now. We’re almost surely correct in speculating that he NEVER would have wasted a nanosecond thinking about the TV thing. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/57 "2009-01-09T16:46:28Z")
There are some important issues that have been overlooked here. 1. The coupons have been a bit of a fiasco. I never received mine, and was told they would not be reissued. As such, I had to have a family member (who has cable) to order them for herself so I could get one to actually use. If they expire or you don’t receive them, you’re SOL. 2. The coupon program has run out of money so people who do actually want to make the switch and can pay the premium on top of the coupon are SOL unless they want to eat the cost of the coupon themselves, when other taxpayers didn’t have to. 3. Television service is not just entertainment. Broadcast television is important for emergency situations. Here in the Midwest, having television service is practically a necessity during tornado season; the sirens only go off if a tornado is spotted, but don’t tell you where the tornado is, or when it’s safe to come out. For access to tornado watches and other weather information, you need radio, TV, or Internet. Radio is increasingly uncommonly used outside of vehicles and cannot stream the information constantly as the internet (which many people still do not have) and TV (through constantly streaming weather information across the bottom of the page, which happens here during any severe weather in the state). Given that people who are in poor housing are disproportionately affected by tornados’ danger - think houses without basements, trailers - this is a real concern. 4. We are in the middle of a huge economic crisis. Many people should not, even if they could go without, be paying for converter boxes and possibly new antennas. A six month delay could allow us to, potentially, get out of the crisis and if not, at least solve problems 1) and 2) above if we take the time to fix the coupon program. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/58 "2009-01-09T16:52:00Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > 100% agree. > > Here’s your “change” folks. Aren’t you glad you voted for him now? Recession, war, unemployment, converter boxes. Oh yeah… tackling the tough issue first. I quite agree. Concerned Americans should demand that their President and his entire staff address only one problem at a time and _no more_. That is how things get done. This unwarranted and reckless multi-tasking will not stand! ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/59 "2009-01-09T17:12:44Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > Radio is increasingly uncommonly used outside of vehicles I grew up in Wisconsin, and if you live in the Midwest and you don’t have one or two battery operated radios then you are woefully unprepared. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448/60 "2009-01-09T17:13:50Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Sorry, what? Digital TV transmitters will have significantly smaller coverage footprints due to signal loss. Whereas an analog TV would show some ghosting, snow or static, the digital TV will simply cut out entirely. Either you are getting enough 1s and 0s for the BER correction or you’re not. > > Second, most of these stations will be transitioning to UHF frequencies. Some will stay VHF. It should be patently clear that for a given transmit power, VHF waves will propagate much further than UHF. There are limited instances where UHF will perform better (especially true in hilly areas), however most transmitters were engineered long ago to deal with this problem (which is simple-- put the transmitting antennas up high). > I am not exactly certain what you mean by digital reception improving-- can you clarify for me? The problem is that curretnly they are jamming analog and digital signals into the same spectrum. Until analog is gone they cannot optimize the signal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-loves-ya-but-stfu-about-dtv/480448.md?page=4)