# Obama: “I’m also mindful that I’m the president of the world’s oldest constitutional democracy,” **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824 "2013-09-02T17:57:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/21 "2013-09-02T19:22:52Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Wikipedia is your friend: > > [Constitution of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Constitution) > > And for completeness: > > [http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldselect/ldconst/168/16809.htm#note92](http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldselect/ldconst/168/16809.htm#note92) You mean this part: > [@](#): > > Historically, "No Act of Parliament can be unconstitutional, for the law of the land knows not the word or the idea. A constitution that puts no constrains on the authority of the government isn’t worth the paper it isn’t written on. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/22 "2013-09-02T19:28:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m willing to grant him literary license as having meant to say that. > > His point being that the constitution delineates the powers granted to the government by the people, and that those powers are limited. I’m no fan of Obama, but I agree - the statement was rhetorical, and not an exact statement of fact. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/23 "2013-09-02T19:39:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A constitution that puts no constrains on the authority of the government isn’t worth the paper it isn’t written on. Nevertheless, it has worked quite well for several centuries so far, and the way things are looking over there it will easily outlast the viability of your bit of paper, that keeps the American political system imprisoned in the 18th century, and makes a 21st century superpower essentially ungovernable. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/24 "2013-09-02T19:44:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You mean this part: > > A constitution that puts no constrains on the authority of the government isn’t worth the paper it isn’t written on. Cite? Most British Historians would disagree with you. There is a Mexican stand off involved- Parliament tries to alter the constitution- PM goes to the Monarch and dissolves Parliament. Election (not penis) ensues. PM tries to alter constitution- Parliament removes him/her. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/25 "2013-09-02T19:46:52Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Nevertheless, it has worked quite well for several centuries so far, and the way things are looking over there it will easily outlast the viability of your bit of paper, that keeps the American political system imprisoned in the 18th century, and makes a 21st century superpower essentially ungovernable. Too true. I see Obama’s over statement (mis-statement) as part of the National delusion that only things American are valued and that everyone else is lesser. Undoubtedly the US Constitution is the oldest written modern constitution still in action, but as you say it causes grief to the body politic in many of its archaic formulations. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/26 "2013-09-02T19:49:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you provide a link to the current constitution of GB? Not every country feels the need to pore over every line of a centuries old document in order to inform current debates. Your constitution, and subsequent amendments, are fine - ground-breaking - documents, but that’s not the only way to organise things. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/27 "2013-09-02T19:49:26Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Nevertheless, it has worked quite well for several centuries so far, and the way things are looking over there it will easily outlast the viability of your bit of paper, that keeps the American political system imprisoned in the 18th century, and makes a 21st century superpower essentially ungovernable. Sure. You have deeply rooted traditions and a long history of Common Law that, after the fact, works effectively in many, perhaps most, ways like a written constitution. Whether your form of government is better than ours is a different debate. But, frankly, I think when you get to the level of either of our countries, you’re talking more about differences than things that are better or worse. > [@Baron Greenback](#): > > Not every country feels the need to pore over every line of a centuries old document in order to inform current debates. Your constitution, and subsequent amendments, are fine - ground-breaking - documents, but that’s not the only way to organise things. Who said it was? ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/28 "2013-09-02T19:55:39Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Is this true? > > It all depends on what one means by Constitutional and Democracy. > > Iceland and England (and later Great Britain) surely have some prior claim as does Athens. > > Or is it just a debating point? No. America is not a Constitutional Democracy. It’s a Constitutional **Republic**. There’s a very big and important difference between a republic and a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/29 "2013-09-02T19:57:43Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > We did have to cut off one King’s head, Charles I? What’s the deal with Cromwell being such an ass that you guys called Charles II back, exhumed and hanged the body of the Judge, I believe, that sentenced his Daddy from a bridge or arch so that Charles II could see it and, I presume, know that Most Was Forgiven? Yes, I am ignorant of English history. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/30 "2013-09-02T19:57:47Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > No. > > America is not a Constitutional Democracy. It’s a Constitutional **Republic**. There’s a very big and important difference between a republic and a democracy. +eleventybillion Except of course we haven been a true Republic in a very long time I guess. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/31 "2013-09-02T19:59:59Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > No. > > America is not a Constitutional Democracy. It’s a Constitutional **Republic**. There’s a very big and important difference between a republic and a democracy. I agree. For example, the citizens of the Confederacy did not secede. Their state legislatures did. A legislative Democracy at best. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/32 "2013-09-02T20:00:52Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > +eleventybillion > > Except of course we haven been a true Republic in a very long time I guess. We still are, just not one that is producing very good results. The key defining characteristic of a republic, as opposed to a democracy, is that instead of the people voting directly on matters of policy, we elect representatives to decide policy on our behalf. That is what is still happening, though our representatives are, by and large, doing a rather poor job of representing the will of their constituents. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/33 "2013-09-02T20:06:50Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > We still are, just not one that is producing very good results. > > The key defining characteristic of a republic, as opposed to a democracy, is that instead of the people voting directly on matters of policy, we elect representatives to decide policy on our behalf. > > That is what is still happening, though our representatives are, by and large, doing a rather poor job of representing the will of their constituents. That’s strange. We do that in the UK, and yet we are not a Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/34 "2013-09-02T20:11:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Who said it was? Nobody on this thread, granted, and not that much on the boards really, so apologies. In the slightly wider world, there seems to be a lot of arguing about what a “militia” is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/35 "2013-09-02T20:12:31Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > No. > > America is not a Constitutional Democracy. It’s a Constitutional **Republic**. There’s a very big and important difference between a republic and a democracy. Meh. The definition of a word is what people think it is, not what you think it is. But even if we consult the [dictionary](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy), we find that Obama’s use of the term is perfectly OK: > [@](#): > > de·moc·ra·cy [dih-mok-ruh-see] > noun, plural de·moc·ra·cies. > > 1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system. > 2.a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies. > 3.a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges. > 4.political or social equality; democratic spirit. > 5.the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power. Words don’t need to retain the definition of the original roots derived from other languages. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/36 "2013-09-02T20:13:38Z")
It might be helpful if we had a link to Obama’s direct wording, I tried to find a transcript of recent speeches but don’t see the line. With wording like that even the slightest transcription error and you’re misrepresenting what Obama actually said. Nevertheless, it is an interesting subject, I gave an opinion on this matter before in a pretty good thread on the topic: > [@Which country can claim to be the oldest uninterrupted democracy?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-can-claim-to-be-the-oldest-uninterrupted-democracy/581195/4): > > Yeah, definition will be the hardest thing to really get past here. > > Iceland has had a legislative body for ages, since like 1000 AD. However for much of the period 1000-1874 Iceland was under the thumb of the Danish Crown. The Danish monarchs until probably the last 200 years were not constitutional in any sense, and essentially ruled based on whim. Denmark had the right to overrule any legislation Iceland passed, so in essence it was a Democracy in a manner similar to the Roman Empire (in that it maintained a legislative body that lacked real power.) > > I don’t really know how I would define democracy. To me, if it’s a representative style democracy, if an unelected monarch has the ability to freely stop legislation and essentially control that legislature I don’t view it as a true democracy. > > The English had a legislature in the age of Henry VIII, and if they did not pass laws exactly as he requested, then the representatives would find themselves being executed on trumped up charges. It wasn’t until after the English Civil War I’d say England had a democracy, of course if you’re hung up on the _franchise_, then you probably have to wait til the latter 18th century or even 19th century to consider the United Kingdom a democracy. (I’m not using England/United Kingdom imprecisely here. Under Henry VIII it was just England, Wales was not given much regard as an entity at the time and Scotland was a different country with a different monarch.) Also: > [@Which country can claim to be the oldest uninterrupted democracy?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-can-claim-to-be-the-oldest-uninterrupted-democracy/581195/15): > > The Tynwald has a similar problem to the Althing, though. In that at some points in its history it didn’t wield any actual legislative power over its little island, despite actually meeting continuously. > > San Marino looks like it could be a good bet. Prior to the late mid-1200s it appears it was (despite its status as an official Republic) ran by a council of powerful families–the Arengo (thus an oligarchy, not a democracy.) However since 1243 the “Grand and General Council” which was elected by the people appears to have run the country. > > However San Marino suffers from the theory versus practice debate. During the early 20th century powerful land owners made the Grand and General Council more and more oligarchical, and this culminated in the San Marino Fascist Party running the country for twenty years, so it becomes questionable if it was a true democratic state during that time. > > I would not immediately discount a state just because of franchise issues, I think you can have a functioning democracy without a totally inclusive franchise. To me it’s about decision making, where is the primary decision making power, in the hands of unelected powers or in the hands of powers beholden to the people? At some point if the franchise is super small, like 1% of the population, or just a small cabal of potentates, that is an oligarchy and at that point the franchise issue would disqualify the country from being a democracy. > > However I think that as long as the primary decision making power of a country is beholden to the people, even if just say, 25% of them, that’s enough of a benchmark to call that country a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/37 "2013-09-02T20:29:34Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > No. > > America is not a Constitutional Democracy. It’s a Constitutional **Republic**. There’s a very big and important difference between a republic and a democracy. I think that you are being over persnickety on the definitions of both democracy and republic. It is perfectly accurate to say the US is a representative democracy. Elected representatives are based on population in all jurisdictions, the only exception is that the US Senate is a democracy of states, not people, with equal representation of each member state. I’m generally very skeptical of the credentials of anyone who spouts the crapulous line that the US isn’t a democracy, it’s a republic. They don’t really understand either and seem to be anti-democratic in their general outlook on politics and more oligarchic and/or aristocratic. The US is both a democracy and a republic. The People’s Republic of China is a republic, but not a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/38 "2013-09-02T20:41:10Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I think that you are being over persnickety on the definitions of both democracy and republic. It is perfectly accurate to say the US is a representative democracy. Elected representatives are based on population in all jurisdictions, the only exception is that the US Senate is a democracy of states, not people, with equal representation of each member state. > > I’m generally very skeptical of the credentials of anyone who spouts the crapulous line that the US isn’t a democracy, it’s a republic. They don’t really understand either and seem to be anti-democratic in their general outlook on politics and more oligarchic and/or aristocratic. > > The US is both a democracy and a republic. The People’s Republic of China is a republic, but not a democracy. Agreed, it reminds me of one of my friend’s parents when I was a kid flipping out after seeing Margaret Thatcher refer to the UK as “a democracy”. She then started saying, “What is she talking about!? It’s a Constitutional monarchy!” Of course a country can be a democracy and a monarchy, a monarchy but not a democracy, a republic but not a democracy, and a democracy and a republic. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/39 "2013-09-02T21:26:10Z")
We should probably not discuss decimation. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/40 "2013-09-02T21:31:06Z")
For a second there I was hoping the debate will be what he MEANT by that rather than pursuit of relatively straightforward fact checking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824.md?page=3)