# Obama: “I’m also mindful that I’m the president of the world’s oldest constitutional democracy,” **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824 "2013-09-02T17:57:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/101 "2013-09-04T10:11:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The idea that England and Wales and/or the United Kingdom have an unwritten constitution is a sort of back-formation from the tradition, _begun by the US_, of having a foundational document called a constitution. What are you talking about? The Protectorate had a written constitution called the [Instrument of Government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Government) followed by another in the [Humble Petition and Advice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Petition_and_Advice). A written constitution is not an American idea, nor is the use of “Constitution” to refer to the foundational law of England (later Britain) a back formation from the American usage. “Constitution” in its modern sense was being used well before the American Constitution was drafted in the British Isles. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/102 "2013-09-04T12:45:20Z")
QUITE > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > What are you talking about? The Protectorate had a written constitution called the [Instrument of Government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Government) followed by another in the [Humble Petition and Advice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Petition_and_Advice). A written constitution is not an American idea, nor is the use of “Constitution” to refer to the foundational law of England (later Britain) a back formation from the American usage. “Constitution” in its modern sense was being used well before the American Constitution was drafted in the British Isles. Quite right. I referenced above a book on the Tudor Constitution published in Tudor times. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/103 "2013-09-04T13:37:18Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > A written constitution is not an American idea, nor is the use of “Constitution” to refer to the foundational law of England (later Britain) a back formation from the American usage. “Constitution” in its modern sense was being used well before the American Constitution was drafted in the British Isles. Wait… They teach you guys that the American Constitution was drafted in the British Isles? No wonder you guys have a screwy sense of history. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/104 "2013-09-04T14:08:55Z")
Going farther back, an aborted attempt at a codified constitution was the 1258 Provisions of Oxford, themselves replaced by the 1259 Provisions of Westminster, which were ended in 1266. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/105 "2013-09-04T14:48:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wait… They teach you guys that the American Constitution was drafted in the British Isles? No wonder you guys have a screwy sense of history. 😃 But they _have_ a history. We have 250 years of news clippings. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/106 "2013-09-04T16:25:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wait… They teach you guys that the American Constitution was drafted in the British Isles? No wonder you guys have a screwy sense of history. 😃 Although I believe that the post just messed up the subject of the sentence ““Constitution” in its modern sense was being used well before the American Constitution was drafted in the British Isles.” should have read: ““Constitution” in its modern sense was being used in the British Isles well before the American Constitution was drafted.” There is a lot of milage in the assertion that the American Constitution was a very British affair. Before about 1760 most educated and politically savvy Americans saw themselves as British, following a British way of life and so on. The question was their lack of representation. The import and many actual phrases used in the Constitution owe their origin to pre-existing British documents. Thomas Paine was British. Even the declaration of Independence was heavily referenced into previous British documents. I doubt that anything was drafted in the British Isles, but both the Declaration and the Constitution are fully in the spirit (and actually use many lifted concepts and phrases) deep within the British Body Politic. When I was taught this in US High School by a very open-minded teacher, he stressed the War of Independence was very much a Civil War rather than a war between nations. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/107 "2013-09-04T17:59:55Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > What are you talking about? The Protectorate had a written constitution called the [Instrument of Government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Government) followed by another in the [Humble Petition and Advice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Petition_and_Advice). A written constitution is not an American idea, nor is the use of “Constitution” to refer to the foundational law of England (later Britain) a back formation from the American usage. “Constitution” in its modern sense was being used well before the American Constitution was drafted in the British Isles. I stand properly corrected. Apologies to **Pjen**. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/108 "2013-09-04T18:09:55Z")
The US Constitution was modeled on the [Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Massachusetts). The Commonwealth of Massachusetts is the oldest continually functioning constitutional democracy in the world. No more lies from NObama! ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/109 "2013-09-04T19:02:02Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You seem willing to embrace the racism in the US constitution, yet ignore the fact that the House of Commons was elected by a franchise limited by wealth. I wonder which is more objectionable. Similarly, the House of Lords was an undemocratic and biased upper house, as the Senate was until the seventeenth amendment, and still is with its imbalance between state populations. I’ve heard this argument from Americans before - it seems to amount to “apart from the areas where we were not democratic, we were a true democracy. Apart from the areas you were democratic, you were not a true democracy.” Because you’re right. It really is a stretch to argue that limiting the franchise to landowners is undemocratic, but forcibly enslaving millions is just an issue that needs to be sorted. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/110 "2013-09-04T20:25:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > . . . They are the future and move us ever closer to the point where non-hispanic whites will be a minority in the US. > > Won’t that be a glorious time in world history? I suggest this is slightly bigoted of you. What makes you think they’ll do a better job than the current national make-up? You certainly won’t persuade anyone of this on the basis of the existing governments of Mexico, Cuba, Nicaragua, Honduras, and so on. It will be just one more time in world history, with its own triumphs and its own flaws. A Hispanic majority in the U.S. would make many good policies…and many bad ones. They are people, very much like other people. Your claim that they would be “glorious” solely on the basis of their ethnicity is not historically supportable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/111 "2013-09-04T20:31:49Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > But they _have_ a history. > We have 250 years of news clippings. 🙂 True, they have more wars to keep track of than we do. The American Revolution was just a bump in the road for them. (And that’s only half-joking.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/112 "2013-09-04T22:16:30Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > I’ve heard this argument from Americans before - it seems to amount to “apart from the areas where we were not democratic, we were a true democracy. Apart from the areas you were democratic, you were not a true democracy.” > > Because you’re right. It really is a stretch to argue that limiting the franchise to landowners is undemocratic, but forcibly enslaving millions is just an issue that needs to be sorted. Meh. It was democratic if you accepted the premise that they weren’t people. Plus there was slavery in British possessions for nearly as long as there was here. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/113 "2013-09-04T22:28:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Meh. It was democratic if you accepted the premise that they weren’t people. Plus there was slavery in British possessions for nearly as long as there was here. Yes. Please note that I’m not really trying to argue that the UK was (at the time, or indeed now) somehow superior or more democratic. I’m asserting that neither nation was democratic in 1776 in any meaningful way. It’s just that if you treat a large part of your population as sub-human and deny them any basic rights to self-determination, you don’t get to scold others for their lack of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/114 "2013-09-04T22:34:14Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You seem willing to embrace the racism in the US constitution, yet ignore the fact that the House of Commons was elected by a franchise limited by wealth. I wonder which is more objectionable. 😕 No, the latter was **my** point, and I mentioned the first as the only reason why the U.S. does not have a lock on this who-had-democracy-first contest. (The sexism is not a factor, British and American women got the vote at about the same time.) > [@Pjen](#): > > Similarly, the House of Lords was an undemocratic and biased upper house, as the Senate was until the seventeenth amendment, and still is with its imbalance between state populations. Never said America was a **perfectly** democratic republic; the FFs did not really trust democracy as such, and the idea took a few decades to catch hold. The key difference is that we are a **culturally** democratic republic, **from the ground up;** de Tocqueville noted the on-the-ground contrasts to European societies of his time. And in much of the country – in all of New England, certainly – that cultural democracy predated independence. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/115 "2013-09-04T22:35:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > They are the future and move us ever closer to the point where non-hispanic whites will be a minority in the US. > > Won’t that be a glorious time in world history? > [@Trinopus](#): > > I suggest this is slightly bigoted of you. What makes you think they’ll do a better job than the current national make-up? You certainly won’t persuade anyone of this on the basis of the existing governments of Mexico, Cuba, Nicaragua, Honduras, and so on. > > It will be just one more time in world history, with its own triumphs and its own flaws. A Hispanic majority in the U.S. would make many good policies…and many bad ones. They are people, very much like other people. Your claim that they would be “glorious” solely on the basis of their ethnicity is not historically supportable. Other than the fact we – Spaniards – gave a much better chance at survival to natives than Anglos did, you are right on point. No race is “superior” per-se. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/116 "2013-09-04T22:41:37Z")
He was teasing a tea-partier, guys. > [@](#): > > Never tease a weasel > And this is good advice > The weasel will not like it > And teasing isn’t nice. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/117 "2013-09-04T22:41:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > True, they have more wars to keep track of than we do. The American Revolution was just a bump in the road for them. (And that’s only half-joking.) John Bull, John Bull, clumsy creeper Had an Empire, couldn’t keep 'er Got another, that too fell Go home, John, and rest a spell! ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/118 "2013-09-04T22:45:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did Iceland, GB or Athens have a constitution prior to 1787? Are those countries, today, functioning under that same constitution? Great Britain has an unwritten constitution, parts of which date back to the 1200’s when the Magna Carta was signed. Various bits and pieces of legislation have all but completely overturned the Magna Carta, but the foundation of the United Kingdom is the Queen, and the constitution functions to limit the authority of the Queen, delegated most of it to the Parliament. The Parliament was orginaly a mechanism of the nobility, but gradually came to represent all British citizens. Athens was a “democracy” for only 50 years or so, some 2500 years ago. I know very little about Iceland… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/119 "2013-09-04T22:47:50Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Other than the fact we – Spaniards – gave a much better chance at survival to natives than Anglos did, you are right on point. Well, yes, but mainly because the Spaniards saw them as slaves to be exploited instead of vermin to be exterminated. The only colonizing Euros who tried to make friends for real with Indians were the French, BTW. And it worked – there were lots of marriage-alliances in the history of New France/Quebec. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/120 "2013-09-04T22:49:55Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A Hispanic majority in the U.S. . . . Oh, we won’t live to see **that.** When whites become a minority, they’ll still be the largest single racial category (as our society defines such) for decades to come. And there might not be a majority-race in America ever again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824.md?page=7)